"You can be in a long-term relationship without being in it for the purposes of marriage, right?" the judge asked.
Ware noted he was not being asked to determine whether Walker had a duty to disclose his relationship, only whether the Walker should have disqualified himself once he was assigned to the case.
From her print story in today's paper:
Can a gay judge rule on same-sex marriage?
His identity is not the issue. His behavior is the issue. There's a difference, right?
Chief U.S. District Judge James Ware, an African American, likened the case to challenges of judges based on race and gender, which have generally failed in civil rights cases. Ware noted, however, that while a jurist's race and gender are usually obvious, litigants may not know whether a judge is gay.
*sigh*
"You can be in a long-term relationship without being in it for the purposes of marriage, right?" Ware asked Charles J. Cooper, the lawyer for the sponsors of Proposition 8.
Cooper conceded that was true, but said Walker should have removed himself because he stood in "the exact same shoes" as the gay and lesbian couples who filed the suit. Like them, Walker was in a committed same-sex relationship, Cooper said.
In a sign of the sensitive nature of the conflict-of-interest allegation, Ware told the packed courtroom that he had married a same-sex couple during the brief period when such marriages were legal in California in 2008. Cooper did not raise any objections.
Well, it was a longshot anyway.
Federal law says jurists can be disqualified from hearing cases because of financial interests, however slight, strong personal friendships with litigants, or a personal bias or prejudice, among other factors.
No financial interest here. Nope. Riiiiight. On the one hand, marriage neutering advocates have told us it is vital for same-sex couples to get state marriage licenses, in no small part due to financial benefits. On the other hand, Walker, in a long-term (notice they never say monogamous) same-sex relationship, couldn't possibly have financially gained from his own decision. Got that?
Cooper argued that a judge must step down if a reasonable person could conclude that he or she might have a personal stake in the outcome.
"If a reasonable person thought a black judge should recuse himself or herself from a civil rights case, would that be sufficient to recuse a judge?" Ware asked.
Identity vs. behavior. Look, we're not saying a white judge can't rule on a case involving country music. But maybe he should disclose the fact that he plays in a professional country music band?
Cooper replied that it would not, nor would the mere fact that Walker was gay be enough to disqualify him. Cooper said Walker should have stepped aside because his relationship put him in the same situation as the plaintiffs who wished to formalize their commitment.
There. Was that so hard? Why was this buried in the article???
Theodore J. Boutrous Jr., representing Proposition 8's challengers, called the disqualification motion "frivolous, offensive and deeply unfortunate."
"No matter how they try to camouflage it or how they try to dress it up, they are challenging his sexual orientation," Boutrous said. "They are challenging Judge Walker because he is gay."
So Boutrous is arguing that gay men can't control themselves when it comes to sex or relationships. There's only one way they can behave. Apparently, you're not really gay unless you're in a long-term relationship.
Lisa Leff's later story from yesterday. She got more relevant in the second paragraph.
They insisted that then-Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker should have divulged whether he wanted to marry his own gay partner before he cleared the way for others to marry theirs.
Why this interpretation instead of the direct quote?
"It's not some news flash that Judge Walker was in a same-sex relationship," Boutrous said.
We don't all hang out in homosexual San Francisco legal circles, pride events, or the theatre.
Ware also heard arguments on whether he should prohibit Walker from using videotaped recordings of the trial in public speeches. Cooper said Walker's post-retirement use of the recordings violated a U.S. Supreme Court ruling barring the trial from being broadcast beyond the federal courthouse in San Francisco.
Ware said he would issue a written ruling at a later date but suggested he was disinclined to prevent his former colleague from making personal use of the videos.
Ware said Walker had been given the videos as a parting gift during a "passing the gavel" ceremony.
"It was done under my auspices," he said. So I want to disclose that in case you wish to make an argument that somehow having presided over that event ... I should recuse myself."
Hah hah. Heads I win, tails you lose. Gee, I wonder how he's gonna rule on that question? Or the first one? Hmmmm. Why would he give Walker those specific videos. Hmmm... oh this is a hard one... So I guess telling him they are only for private use is too much, huh? I wonder how many other public servants get to take government property and use it in public for personal gain after they've retired?
There's an awful lot of sleight of hand here. If sexual orientation is as much a part of someone inborn identity as their sex or skin color, does that necessarily mean that certain behaviors will always follow? If so, can someone point me to a behavior that will always follow based on sex or skin color? Are we willing to say Walker's relationship is just like an involuntary body function, like menstruation?
Oh, and despite how the biased media always writes these stories, the California Marriage Amendment, adopted by a majority of the voting governed, was NOT a "ban on same-sex marriage." I can correct them as often as they make that "mistake".
You may also be interested in this post over on my namesake blog:
Bullies and Hypocrites
"'It's not some news flash that Judge Walker was in a same-sex relationship,' Boutrous said."
ReplyDeleteI seem to recall that Judge Walker and the media did everything in their power, before the trial began, to hide the fact that Walker was a practicing homosexual. Why would they do that then be so flippant after the ruling?
Identity politics will be the death of our judicial system.
Cooper said Walker should have stepped aside because his relationship put him in the same situation as the plaintiffs who wished to formalize their commitment.
ReplyDeleteSo the argument is that the only gay person who could objectively preside over a case dealing with same-sex marriage is a gay person who isn't in a relationship?
You're completely missing the point, Phil.
ReplyDeleteCooper argues the following:
Any judge's expression of an opinion about the merits of a case or familiarity with the facts or the parties must disclose or recuse when that opinion originated in a source outside the case itself.
Since Walker neither disclosed nor recused before taking the case, he and his ruling is now correctly suspect.
Euripides, if I'm missing the point, that means that a gay person who is in a relationship could, in Cooper's argument, objectively preside over a same-sex marriage case.
ReplyDeleteIs that consistent with your understanding of Cooper's argument?
You write:
Any judge's expression of an opinion about the merits of a case or familiarity with the facts or the parties must disclose or recuse when that opinion originated in a source outside the case itself.
I'm not sure what you meant to say, because the verb in that sentence is "expression," and I don't think you meant that the expression should recuse itself.
It sounds like you're saying that a judge must recuse themself when their opinion about the merits of a case originated in a source outside the case itself.
The "source" presented by Cooper is Judge Walker's relationship, is it not?
Phil: > Euripides, if I'm missing the point, that means that a gay person who is in a relationship could, in Cooper's argument, objectively preside over a same-sex marriage case.
ReplyDeleteThe question is, could he if he feels he has to keep that hidden from the public?
It is certainly relevant information, and would have cleared the air before the case began.
Its possible that one could, the question is why didn't Walker disclose that so the powers that be could deliberate on that before he made the decision?
The fact he had such a potential financial stake in the trial does make him suspect. The fact that he hid it makes it even more so.
At this point we could decide that it would be okay, but what lesson would that teach judges? That it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission? That is the wrong message to send, and why his actions are particularly egregious.
Phil:
ReplyDelete>>
"So the argument is that the only gay person who could objectively preside over a case dealing with same-sex marriage is a gay person who isn't in a relationship?"
>>
This statement misses the point of Cooper's argument.
>>
"that means that a gay person who is in a relationship could, in Cooper's argument, objectively preside over a same-sex marriage case."
>>
Your opposite statement as quoted also misses the point of Cooper's argument.
>>
"I'm not sure what you meant to say, because the verb in that sentence is "expression," and I don't think you meant that the expression should recuse itself."
>>
Now you're just being obtuse about the use of language. Unlike you, I don't have seemingly endless time to argue your semantic contortions. Quite frankly, I'm glad of it.
Now you're just being obtuse about the use of language. Unlike you, I don't have seemingly endless time to argue your semantic contortions
ReplyDeleteNo, Euripides, I'm not being obtuse about the use of language. You typed a sentence that was grammatically incorrect. I pointed out the error, and then I immediately presented what I interpreted your remarks to mean and asked for clarification.
I was being reasonable, and you are now being unreasonable. It doesn't disprove your point if you acknowledge that you mistyped a sentence. It does make you seem like a jerk if you dig in your heels and pretend that your error wasn't an error and the fault is with your reader.
The fact he had such a potential financial stake in the trial does make him suspect.
What potential financial stake did he have in the trial?
Phil: > It does make you seem like a jerk if you dig in your heels and pretend that your error wasn't an error and the fault is with your reader.
ReplyDeleteIts funny, playing grammar nazi doesn't make you look like a jerk?
How amazingly myopic.
And considering all the replies given, that is the only one you reply to, it seems being a grammar nazi is all you have left.
Feel free to show that I'm wrong.
OK. You're right Phil. It was poor grammar. I admit it. You win. Shame on me for constructing poor grammar on the fly like that.
ReplyDeleteJudge Walker should have disclosed his relationship or should have recused himself on the grounds that his legal opinion originated from a source outside of the case itself. Yes, that source is based on his standing to gain personally from his own court opinion. The fact that Walker did not even disclose his bias, and the attempts by him and the media to cover up his homosexual relationship before the trial, demonstrates the dangers of identity politics.
It demonstrates a blatant willingness to disregard standard court procedure, the rule of law, and precedent, all in the attempt to neuter marriage relationships.
Judge Walker should have disclosed his relationship or should have recused himself on the grounds that his legal opinion originated from a source outside of the case itself.
ReplyDeleteAre you conceding, then, that Proposition 8 mattered only to people in same-sex relationships? Are you saying that individual citizens who are married to a person of the opposite sex had no discernible interest in the outcome of the Proposition 8 vote, or the Proposition 8 court case?
Its funny, playing grammar nazi doesn't make you look like a jerk?
ReplyDeleteI pointed out another poster had made a grammar error which made it difficult to interpret what he meant. His first response was to attack me, instead of doing something reasonable, like clarifying what he meant.
And considering all the replies given, that is the only one you reply to, it seems being a grammar nazi is all you have left.
Feel free to show that I'm wrong.
Will do.
I also replied to you, in the same comment:
The fact he had such a potential financial stake in the trial does make him suspect.
What potential financial stake did he have in the trial?
Phil: > What potential financial stake did he have in the trial?
ReplyDeleteDon't you mean what financial stake did he have if he wanted to marry his partner, but found Prop 8 an impediment?
Is that not qualify as a financial stake in the outcome of the trial?
Phil: > Are you conceding, then, that Proposition 8 mattered only to people in same-sex relationships?
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that Prop 8 mattered financially to people in same-sex relationships that they wanted marriage licenses for.
I don't know that you can say that about any other set of couples.
Don't you mean what financial stake did he have if he wanted to marry his partner, but found Prop 8 an impediment?
ReplyDeleteIs that not qualify as a financial stake in the outcome of the trial?
According to you, and to Playful Walrus, Proposition 8 does not prevent Judge Walker from marrying his same-sex partner.
So how could the outcome of the trial have an impact on Walker's financial situation?
Why is it relevant whether he wants to marry his partner or not, if he already has the right to marry him?
I don't know that you can say that about any other set of couples.
ReplyDeleteSo, Prop 8 doesn't affect people who aren't in same-sex relationships financially.
Does it affect people who aren't in same-sex relationships at all? Does it affect them in any way, even if it's not financial?
Phil: I'm not sure what you meant to say, because the verb in that sentence is "expression,"...
ReplyDelete"Expression" is a noun, not a verb. When one's own grasp of the language is so tenuous, one is well advised not to play grammar cop.
His first response was to attack me,
No, it wasn't. Lying about the comment trail to try and score a cheap ad hominem, especially when the comment trail is right here for all to see does not garner credibility.
...instead of doing something reasonable, like clarifying what he meant.
Perhaps Phil would now like to take his own advice and correct his grammar mistake before we move on. If avoiding hypocrisy doesn't motivate Phil to follow his own advice then maybe deleting all his comments until he does will.
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ReplyDeleteIt's still true: I should have said "The noun in that sentence is 'expression'..."
ReplyDeletePhil,
ReplyDeleteNeither personal attacks nor hypocrisy is tolerated. Until you have corrected your error, as you insisted of others, your comments will be deleted.
It's still true: I should have said "The noun in that sentence is 'expression'..."
That was at least an attempt, but it is still wrong, try again. There are several nouns in that sentence. There is no "the noun." Someone who wants to play grammar cop really needs a better understanding of it than you are displaying.
op-ed: Phil was correct that my sentence used poor grammar. I made "expression" the subject of the sentence, rather than "judge." The sentence should have read something like "Any judge who expresses..."
ReplyDeleteHowever, you are correct in that attacking grammar while ignoring the intent is an ad hominem of the silliest sort. You are also correct in pointing out that "expression" in the sentence is not the verb. There are two verbs in the sentence "disclose" and "recuse."
The point, of course, was to get to the heart of Cooper's argument, that Judge Walker neglected to do either before taking on the Prop. 8 case. Before the case, HuffPo and SFGate did their darndest to defend Walker by insisting that no one really knew if he was gay or not and that was not germane to the case.
Now all the news media report that, of course Judge Walker is gay.
The point is moot, however, as the federal court ruled that Walker did not have to recuse himself from the case. All the headlines, by the way, inaccurately say that the court "upheld" the Walker decision. That's simply not true and more of the same bias from the media.
Euripides: Phil was correct that my sentence used poor grammar.
ReplyDeleteWow. You could divine that was what Phil intended despite his errors in expressing himself? Gee, it seems pedantic errors aren't the barrier to understanding for some that they are for others.
I made "expression" the subject of the sentence, rather than "judge."
Very good. Now let's see if Phil is clever enough to learn from your hint how to properly correct his statement.
(Here's another hint for Phil: An apology would also correct his hypocrisy in this case if he'd rather that than be held to his own standard.)
...he was gay or not and that was not germane to the case.
Neither side contends otherwise. HuffPo, et al., are well advised to familiarize themselves with the case before spouting off on it. Ed Whelan does an excellent job of explaining (part 2 and part 3) the case in very simple terms.
op-ed:
ReplyDelete"Wow. You could divine that was what Phil intended despite his errors in expressing himself?"
I assume that Phil's intention was to belittle or demean but decided that, since he started arguing grammar, I might as well join in and continue the charade. I think Phil needs to now pony up and admit that his "correction" of my grammar needs to be corrected. Then we can move on to completely derail the point and meaning of the "conversation", as Phil seems so adept at doing.
That NRO article was an excellent analysis of the arguments.
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ReplyDeletePhil,
ReplyDeleteHypocrisy will not be tolerated. You insist the "reasonable" thing for others is to correct errors when you point them out. Now live up to that standard or admit you never actually meant what you said but instead were engaging in cheap ad hominem and apologize.
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ReplyDeletePhil,
ReplyDeleteCorrect your error or apologize. If you can't remember, reread the comments. Don't just write comments about how confused you are.
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ReplyDeleteMe: Correct your error or apologize.
ReplyDeletePhil: I have twice acknowledged that I erred...
Acknowledged or not, you have never corrected it. You were never asked to "acknowledge that [you] erred."