I want an opponent of same-sex marriage to look me straight in the eye and tell me why what Canada has made so easy, and what U.S. District Chief Judge Vaughn R. Walker has declared constitutionally sound, should be so difficult in the United States?
Words mean things. We have chosen to continue to value and set apart as marriage the only kind of voluntary association that unites both basic components of society and can naturally create new citizens, who do not consent to the situation, and provide those citizens with a parent and role model from both of the two sexes, united in a legal, social, and financial union.
How about you look a bride+groom set of parents who voted for Prop 8 in the eye and tell them that what you do with Steve is no different than what they did to create their children, and they don't have a right to vote on the conditions of licenses that are issued on their behalf?
How can any society that dares to call itself free dare as well to exclude same-sex couples from marriage's singular advantages - legal, cultural and (as I newly understand) psychological?
We reserve legal advantages for certain kinds of associations for the overall benefit of society. Culture is not dependent on a state license. Most, if not all, of the cultural and psychological benefits are marriage emanate from the joining of the two sexes.
[Much more after the jump.]
Why is what Steve and I did in Vancouver, and what we've felt ever since, a threat to anyone else's marriage?If state marriage licensing is neutered, we will be devaluing marriage as a legal institution through removing the core factor and diluting the meaning. If a student who never takes your class is able to place on his transcripts that he got an "A" in your class, how would that hurt all of the other "A" grades?
By what conceivable logic do we now jeopardize, rather than strengthen, marriage as an institution?The same way forcing a bunch of chess teams into Major League Baseball threatens professional baseball.
I've taught the power and necessity of ritual for my 38 years as a professor of American culture.You can have ritual without a state license.
In considering what motivates condemnations of gay marriage, it's crucial to recognize that condemning some demonized "other" has a pernicious allure for those who are wrestling with personal demons. In the twisted logic of bigotry, denouncing the identity of someone else is sometimes an effort to deny that the denouncer shares that very identity.As I understand his point, based on having heard him on the Dennis Prager Show, "sometimes" is a crucial part of this. One need not denounce anyone's identity of maintain that the state has an interest in maintaining a bride+groom requirement in marriage licensing.
The shame that Steve and I experienced as gay youngsters hasn't disappeared from the land, of course, and in a sad irony, those who feel the shame often try to expunge it in themselves by encouraging it in others.This is pointless, because someone could just as easily and credibly argue that the author is trying to get other people to do what he does to assuage his feelings.
So everybody was essentially androgynous and bisexual until a hundred years ago?Sometimes it's less stark than that. The words "heterosexual" and "homosexual," and the erotic dichotomy they imply, weren't coined until a century ago.
Polarized sexual identity brought with it a powerful preference for heterosexuality.
Many Americans, especially males, struggled mightily to "prove" their straightness, so fierce was the fear of being judged otherwise.It is quite sad that friendship has been cast under suspicion.
The dreary, endless list of ways that our culture has devised to demonstrate "true" masculinity and femininity, and hence straightness, would be merely pathetic were it not the cause of so much misery.Someone can be masculine or feminine without ever engaging in sex or having a partner. But they are complimentary aspects of humanity.
The drive for same-sex marriage is no threat; it's in truth a thoroughly conservative movement, one of the few authentic defenses that the institution of marriage has received in recent history.
I hope we never will find out if that is true or not, because I suspect we’ll find out that it is false. If we hadn't already devalued marriage so much, there would be no way that neutering marriage would have nearly as much support as it does. If we still had laws against adultery, alienation of affection, cohabitation, and so forth the way we used to, then I highly doubt that most marriage neutering advocates would want same-sex relationships to be placed in the same context as pairing the sexes. (And, by the way, if marriage is neutered nationwide, I will be holding my homosexual friends and associates to the same standards I hold heterosexuals - I will not be supporting shacking up, sex outside of marriage, out of wedlock births, or divorce without just cause.) If marriage is neutered across the land, then once it serves the purpose of quashing through government force all disagreement that homosexual behavior is the same as heterosexual behavior and that same-sex coupling is the same as bride+groom coupling, the attack on marriage as part of the overall assault on the family will continue. This is likely not what the author wants, but it is what is wanted by those who want people to rely more on government or the removal of any cultural norms for sexual behavior.
The paper also ran an editorial, "Homosexuality and the Law", in which they argue that homosexual people should be considered a minority group privileged to the court standard of 'strict scrutiny’, and thus a right to state marriage licenses without a bride or without a groom.
The standard applies to laws affecting minority groups that fall within "suspect classifications," but the courts have not been entirely clear about the criteria for receiving this special protection. They have said, among other things, that such groups must have been historically targeted by discrimination; must be a "discrete" and "insular" community; must be a minority because of an unchangeable characteristic; and must have lacked the power to protect themselves using the political process. Groups don't necessarily have to meet all four, and other factors could be considered. Among the classifications that have qualified for this protection are race and national origin. Could the same apply to sexual orientation?Homosexual people are politically powerful in California. They serve as judges, for example, and overturn duly adopted constitutional amendments. And, they have major newspaper editorial boards constantly writing about their issues in a supportive way.
There is no doubt that gays and lesbians have historically been singled out for discrimination, to the point that until relatively recently, most were too afraid of the repercussions to reveal information about their sexuality. The vitriol hurled their way during the marriage debate only adds to the evidence.What vitriol?
One of the more divisive arguments about homosexuality is whether it is a mere choice, or inborn. But the American Psychological Assn. states clearly that although the factors determining sexual orientation are complicated, it is not a choice and cannot be changed.
According to trial testimony, for a significant minority, it is a choice. And certainly, behaviors are choices.
The paper also ran an editorial urging the issuing of neutered marriage licenses during the appeal process.
Having ruled that Proposition 8 unreasonably and unconstitutionally deprived gay and lesbian couples of the right to marry, U.S. District Chief Judge Vaughn R. Walker should take the natural next step of allowing such marriages to go forward while the case wends its way upward on appeal.I don't seem to recall an editorial denouncing Newsom's original shenanigans in light of Prop 22 and DOMA, or calling for the authorities to take steps to make sure marriage licenses weren't mistakenly issued to a brideless or groomless couple after Prop 8 passed, or the California Supreme Court affirmed it as a valid amendment to the state constitution. I guess the paper's love for legal principles only goes so far?
Because Canada gave up on being a society... look at their fertility rates.
ReplyDelete""We can't be a dying race," Williams said Tuesday, while releasing the Progressive Conservative party's platform for the Oct. 9 general election.
"We can't be in a situation where our population is shrinking, where we have more people dying than are being born."
Newfoundland and Labrador, which recorded more than 15,000 births per year during the early 1960s, has had a plummeting birth rate over two generations."
It's so bad they try to pay women to have babies, and that isn't seeming to work either. A mere $1000, that's all. Maybe in the future I should calculate how much I've lost stepping out of a career, plus what I do at home, plus what we sacrifice with my husband's discretionary income for the children then... then... I would like a check from the government for THAT amount. Yeah, when I get a check for that amount from the government, and the government obligates itself to me by vowing to provide for my loss of earnings and costs for childrearing.... then sure only after that let them redefine marriage.
Tell the professor I'm locatable...
Renee Aste
Lowell Massachusetts
Here is a good read... Canada's Fiscal Sustainability Report
ReplyDeleteOf course gay marriage isn't a cause, societies through who have no problem accepting this definition are half-way to extinction as is.
The reason they want to deny the stay on Judge Walker's ruling and start issuing neutered marriage licenses is to emotionally blackmail the Ninth Circuit judges, the Supreme Court, and the voters in 2012 (when they plan to put on the ballot a measure to repeal Prop 8), by thus arguing that upholding Prop 8 will be "taking away" something from those that got same-sex marriage licenses between now and whenever those decisions take place.
ReplyDeleteHere's something you might not have expected: Rauch is critical of Walker's decision.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Peter, for the link. Actually, I did expect Jonathan Rauch to have some sense about this.
ReplyDeleteFrom the Rauch article linked to above:
ReplyDeleteIt's much easier to damage society, he [Edmund Burke] pointed out, than to repair it.
Why do so many refuse, not only to see this, but to even consider this when addressing something like neutering marriage?
It would also be a miscarriage of justice if states had to overturn their protection clauses regarding sexual orientation so we would have better marriage laws, and that reasoning could happen with the tone and reasoning of Walker's decision..
ReplyDeleteNo one wants unjust discrimination, but there is nothing unjust to acknowledge that we all have a biological mother and father and it's a society's ideal for an individual to be raised by his/her family in our public policy.
Rauch: It's much easier to damage society... than to repair it.
ReplyDeleteRauch's critique is one of style over substance. On style he complains (rightly) that the judiciary is not the correct venue for this to be decided, but on substance he finds Judge Walker's decision "formidable" and "carefully reasoned." There is simply no legitimate or believable way to say that about a ruling which concludes that marriage throughout time has had but one motive: "to enshrine ...the notion that opposite sex couples are superior to same-sex couples." Just on its face that conclusion is utterly absurd. We have criticized Rauch's poor reasoning in the past, but standing up for this ruling discredits even Rauch.
I guess, where Rauch at least disagrees with Walker, is that Rauch (while not putting it in exactly those words) at least understands that, as much as he may think neutering marriage will be so wonderful for society, it is possible that he may be wrong, something Walker is unwilling to even concede. That kind of certitude about the future is not befitting for a judge.
ReplyDeleteNow Walker is trying to stack the deck against an appeal. Ed Whelan comments on this at Bench Memos.
My take on this is that this differs from the situation when Proposition 8 was first approved by voters. Then, the case could well be made that since Prop 8 was not in effect until voted on in November, and the California Supreme Court ruled for neutering marriage several months earlier, those "marriages" performed between the time of the court decision and the time Prop 8 was approved by voters were still legal, and that in the absence of language in Prop 8's text specifically saying that it was meant to be retroactive the marriages could be allowed to stand. I don't believe that they should, but I see how the case could be made to that effect, and apparently the reasoning California's Supreme Court took
But that is not the case here. In this case, if Walker's ruling is eventually overturned, by either the Ninth Court Of Appeals or the Supreme Court, then Proposition 8 will not just be "reinstated". It will never have been illegal since the time of its adoption, and thus it will have been the law of California through the entire period from Walker's ruling until the time it is overturned, and any neutered "marriages" performed during that time will have been illegal, and thus null and void.
So if Walker's ruling is rejected by the Supreme Court, any neutered "marriages" performed from now till then will be on far worse ground legally than those performed for those few months in 2008. This makes a case for a stay quite overwhelming here, and the only reason for denying it is to attempt to emotionally blackmail the higher courts (and, should that fail, Californians in a 2012 ballot initiative hoping to overturn Prop 8).
In rejecting the stay, Walker held that even if his ruling is overturned, neutered "marriages" performed between his ruling and the overturning of it will as likely be valid as those performed before Prop 8 was voted on. This is just another example of either his deceptiveness or his lack of legal sense. More likely the former. Watch to see, if the stay is not granted, yet the appeal allowed to proceed, if then he and others don't change their tune and admit that such "marriages" in fact will not be valid if Prop 8 is ultimately upheld, and constantly remind the public and higher courts of this fact in an effort to emotionally blackmail them into ruling or voting against it.
ReplyDeleteWhat's going on here, it appears, is that neutered marriage advocates really don't want the case going to the Supreme Court---not yet. They are too uncertain of the outcome. Hence, they want the case to stop with Judge Walker's ruling, and thus for neutered marriage to be legal again in California. Not only that, but if the federal ruling stops with Walker, even if this directly affects only California, they are hoping that this will scare other states away from attempting any public referendums on the issue. (Apparently this has already worked in Iowa). Thus they are hoping that opponents of neutering marriage will be intimidated in other states so that by the time it does get to the Supreme Court, after the swing vote of Kennedy or any of the four conservatives have been replaced with more liberal appointees, a bandwagon will have taken place making a ruling mandating neutered marriage much more likely.
ReplyDeleteHowever, just in case the appeal does go forward, they are hoping that if Walker's ruling does get overturned, there will be so many "married" same-sex couples in California that out of a sense of guilt voters will then repeal Prop 8 anyway, and thus California will be able to sell SSM to the rest of the country via the media and entertainment shows.
Also, there is a good case that if Proposition 8's proponents don't have legal standing, Walker's ruling should then be vacated.
ReplyDeleteTo quote Ed Whelan:
In an article in Time magazine, UC Davis law professor Vikram Amar (a former Blackmun clerk and not a conservative) raises the same possibility that I did:
[T]o add another twist, at least one constitutional-law scholar in California is suggesting that by trumpeting the issue of standing, Walker has opened a hornet’s nest he may have been better off leaving undisturbed. “If the proponents don’t have standing to appeal, then it’s entirely plausible that the courts will rule that they did not properly have standing to go to trial,” Vikram Amar, a law professor at the University of California at Davis, told TIME Thursday evening. “This is an issue he glossed over when he allowed them to intervene in the trial.”
Amar says that if the Ninth Circuit agrees with Walker that the proponents don’t have standing to appeal, the judges may well decide they shouldn’t have been allowed to intervene in the case at all. If they do, he says, they could decide to vacate the trial entirely, sending it back to Walker to start over. [Emphasis added.]
R.K., your 8:13pm comment is in line with what I was thinking when I wrote this entry.
ReplyDeleteSeeing how the California newspapers are trying their hardest to do their own pleading to the courts, I have to particularly respect Justice Clarence Thomas for refusing to even read the newspapers regarding legal issues. Other judges should do the same.
ReplyDeleteI disagree. I think it is healthier to have all voices heard and draw a conclusion after that has been done; the more information the better.
ReplyDeleteI often argue counter to my own opinions in order to see if I can find weaknesses in my logic. Sometimes new information changes views, that seems healthy. It seems arrogant to always assume correctness without question.
By saying that he will not read any newspapers regarding legal issues Justice Thomas seems to imply that he doesn't want to be swayed by the facts. Ignorance is not the leadership I am looking for.
By saying that he will not read any newspapers regarding legal issues Justice Thomas seems to imply that he doesn't want to be swayed by the facts.
ReplyDeleteNo, he's saying he doesn't want to be swayed by journalistic opinion which is frequently based not on legal arguments but on the personal feelings of the journalist, and often appeals to a bandwagon mentality by subtly telling the justice which side of a decision will get him the most praise from the press. Journalists too often seek to sway judges by appealing to their desire to be popular rather than to follow the law, and you can see this going on in this case more than ever. Statements trying to tell Justice Kennedy how well he will be seen down the road if he votes to uphold Judge Walker are excellent examples. It is this kind of journalism which justices should ignore. They should base their decisions only on legal arguments, not on those of journalists who want the law used to their ends.
It seems to me like the action of someone who either has already made up his mind or an admission that he fears he cannot remain impartial when confronted with all opinions. Neither of these are acceptable coming from a supreme court justice.
ReplyDeleteTerry, the only opinions justices are supposed to consider are legal opinions, not journalistic opinions. Appeals to what is going to be the "progressive" or "popular" opinion according to journalists should not be considered. Indeed, allowing these opinions to sway them is what is not acceptable in a Supreme Court justice. Yes, he should hear all legal opinions, but he is under no obligation to consider opinions as to what will get him the most praise from reporters.
ReplyDeleteTerry: I think it is healthier to have all voices heard and draw a conclusion after that has been done; the more information the better.
ReplyDeleteYou may not like it, Terry, but in America (and most of the free world) defendants have the right to confront witnesses and evidence used against them in open court. Along with the right to vote, this is yet another actual right we enjoy that you seem all to happy to throw out in your quest to invent a new "right."
It seems to me like the action of someone who either has already made up his mind or an admission that he fears he cannot remain impartial when confronted with all opinions.
ReplyDeleteSeems I have to agree this statement describes Walker to a tee. Walker, it turns out, didn't allow relevant testimony from many expert sources like Kingsley. Walker, it turns out, didn't even follow the opinions of the precedent Supreme Court cases on the matter, like Baker. Indeed, he seemed downright ignorant of the latter, not mentioning it at all in his opinion.
RK, the judicial system does not operate in a vacuum. People will attempt to influence decisions on both sides in and outside of the court room as they always have. I hope the judges are fully informed when they make their decision, if it gets that far.
ReplyDeleteOp-ed, where are you getting your opinions of me? You say, "You may not like it" and "in your quest to invent a new right". Do you always jump to conclusions like this?
I agree with you onlawn, Walker does seem unlikely to be able to give an impartial voice in this matter as seen in how he worded his decision.
Terry: Op-ed, where are you getting your opinions of me?
ReplyDeleteOpinions of you? Please. Ease up on the melodrama. I have no interest in discussing you.
As for my responses, I provide quotes to make clear to what I am responding. The comment trail is also in tact if you wish to refresh your mind as to the context.
But enough about you, back to what you didn't address: your attempt to take away the rights of the defendant.
"I think it is healthier to have all voices heard [including newspapers and other sources not in the trial record] and draw a conclusion after that has been done..."
Your advice may be well put to legislators, but courts should not legislate and judges are not legislators.
People will attempt to influence decisions on both sides in and outside of the court room as they always have.
ReplyDeleteYes, and judges are not supposed to let anything influence their judgment other than the legal arguments. They are not supposed to be influenced by journalists telling them that a particular decision will be the one that will get them more praise from the journalistic elite. Or that a certain decision will be "on the right side of history". Oh, of course, many jurists do let such things influence them, but I give credit to those who do their best not to, even if this means avoiding reading articles about legal issues which are not based on legal argument.
Op-ed, you need to grow up, plain and simple. You are rude without need and I won't bother responding to someone who stupidly insists I am against what I am not.
ReplyDeleteRK, thanks for the input, I am reconsidering my perspective as a result.
Terry: You are rude without need...
ReplyDeleteReally? I don't remember using terms like "grow up" or "stupidly."
And that's yet another comment of yours that doesn't address the point I actually raised.