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Thursday, August 19, 2010

Los Angeles Times Tried to Tell the Court What to Do

I couldn't let this editorial in the Los Angeles Times slip by. They express hope that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals sees things their way from what scant information was provided in issuing a stay. I'm not sure why they saw a need to run this, seeing as how we already know their opinion, but they did.
The appellate courts should recognize the undeniable merit in Walker's opinion: Homosexuals as a group have long suffered from many kinds of discrimination and thus require the fullest protection of the courts.
I agree that homosexual people, as human beings, should be protected under the law. Marriage licenses aren't needed for that. Or does the editorial board also think that unmarried heterosexual people not fully protected by the law, either?
There is no reliable evidence that [neutering] marriage is harmful to children or that it is a threat to social stability.
It hasn't been implemented in more than a handful of places, recently. I have no proof that jumping into a pool without water will hurt me, because I haven't done it. But it should be intuitive that it is harmful to deny the difference - and the importance in that difference - between the sexes. And I know it wouldn't be good to jump into a pool without water, even though I've never seen anyone do it.
Marriage is a fundamental right, and the attempt to withhold it from a particular group — whether mixed-race or same-sex couples — is irrational, immoral and unconstitutionally discriminatory.

There is a fundamental right to freedom of association. Laws against cohabitation and fornication helped to form an actual ban on "interracial" marriage in the states that refused to license that old-as-time tradition. And those were marriages because they brought together a bride and a groom. Things are different now as far as the freedom of assocation, but marriage has always been something involving both a man and a woman. People have their freedom of association. They can go ahead and make vows and commitments and homes and plans together, and the government will not stop them. But forcing the rest of us to break with all of the great moral thinkers in history, to allow a minority to dictate what our position is going to be is too much.

Whenever the higher courts have cited marriage as a fundamental right, it has always involved uniting the sexes. But the editorial board and Walker want to force the people of California to license something else as marriage.

Fundamental rights can't be "withheld" from a group by government, because the government does not grant such rights. It only recognizes such rights and protects them (when functioning properly) and infringes upon them when overstepping authority. Same-sex couples have their fundamental right to association.

There is a fundamental right to vote, but only to vote in the confines of the existing system. There is a fundamental right to privacy, but shy people can't keep their picture and identifying information off of their driver's license. There is a fundamental right to free enterprise, but certain conditions have to be met for a business license. The fundamental right to these things, as they are regulated by the state, come with certain conditions. Who sets those conditions? Lawmakers. And sometimes, we are the lawmakers.

But notice that the editorial board says it is immoral to hold back from issuing brideless or groomless couples marriage licenses. Aren't we supposed to keep morality out of this? But since the Los Angeles Times has cited morality, I'd like to ask where these morals come from? Or is this a matter of "immoral" simply meaning "something we don't like"?

40 comments,:

  1. well, your definition of "immoral" is certainly the definition that most fundamentalist groups take.

    i'm going to make this attempt: why allow gay people to marry each other is not wrong, and why it's NOT anyone's business except A) the parties to wed and B) the party that licenses said marriage.

    first of all, you have a couple different options on what you believe "being gay" is - is it a natural state? i know that it *IS* natural, because every mammalian species has gay members.. we used to have two female dogs who engaged in homosexual behavior to the EXCLUSION of heterosexual behavior, by which i mean when a male dog was introduced during the heat of one or the other dogs, the male dog was attacked and driven off in favor of the other female as a partner.
    Or, maybe it's socialized, or caused by "hormones" in food, or abuse, or whatever else. in this case, to change a person THAT MUCH, it MUST [psychologically and physiologically] happen BEFORE the development of personality - which is a fuzzy line, but generally, the establishment of basic personality is completed by age 4 at the latest.
    Then there's the “they choose to be gay” idea. I don't understand it at ALL, therefor I can't explain it, but it seems to be the main thought of The Right.
    I REALLY don't understand this one, mostly because it seems to ignore homosexuality throughout history.

    So;either gay people are MADE THAT WAY by God/Nature; gay people are MADE THAT WAY by bad people or bad chemicals; gay people CHOOSE to be that way.

    now, marriage.
    first off - marriage has NOT always been "1m/1w". it ALSO has NOT always been "m/f combos ONLY"
    it *is* arguable that in Western European culture, gay marriage was not a consideration, being gay could get one executed, and it was hidden. but there are many cultures that allowed m/m and f/f married couples -
    and you are LIVING IN THE LANDS OF SOME OF THOSE CULTURES!!!

    Also - there *IS* a difference between a Civil Marriage and a Religious Marriage.
    It's legal and moral [depending on church/religion] to refuse to marry, say, a Catholic and a Jew.
    It is NOT legal or moral for the State to do the same.
    A religious marriage is made between 3 parties – the two getting married and the Church/religion.
    A civil marriage is made between 3 parties – the two getting married and THE STATE. *NOT* God or religion – the STATE.
    So the RCC, or LDS, or any other church can refuse a RELIGIOUS marriage. But the STATE cannot.
    And it is CIVIL marriage that is at stake. NOT religious.

    50 years ago, not only could i NOT marry my fiancee [because he's black, and I'm considered white] but it's possible i could not have married at ALL - i have genetic diseases, that at one time would have had me forcibly sterilized and either committed or declared “incompetent” because I cannot physically care for myself [physical disability]
    and that sort of thing was even WORSE for women who had MENTAL illnesses! and, funnily, lesbianism was considered a valid “mental illness” for this treatment.

    and, frankly, it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS - not your life, not your marriage, not your business. perhaps, at most, 5% of the US population is gay; it's probably only about 3%. not everyone wants to get married; many already feel they are and aren't going to go and get a piece of paper. others will have other good reasons to not legally do so. the divorce rate is OVER 50%. exactly what damage can be done by such a small segment?! *that* is the ONLY Civil Law consideration. Further, it does NOT, in any way, invalidate YOUR, or ANY, marriage. churches can still refuse to marry gay people. the STATE cannot refuse to do so on RELIGIOUS GROUNDS, and i have YET to hear ANY argument that is NOT religious for why gay couples cannot marry each other.

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  2. well, your definition of "immoral" is certainly the definition that most fundamentalist groups take.

    You realize that the post author is borrowing the term and definition as used by article's author...

    "But notice that the editorial board says it is immoral to hold back from issuing brideless or groomless couples marriage licenses. Aren't we supposed to keep morality out of this? But since the Los Angeles Times has cited morality, I'd like to ask where these morals come from? Or is this a matter of 'immoral' simply meaning 'something we don't like'?"

    first off - marriage has NOT always been "1m/1w". it ALSO has NOT always been "m/f combos ONLY"

    Actually, it has as a matter of government or cultural recognition.

    Do you have any evidence otherwise?

    there *IS* a difference between a Civil Marriage and a Religious Marriage

    I don't think there is either, really. There is marriage, it is an entity that is recognized by civil and religious entities. And that only underlines marriage's universality.

    You do have a point though. Religions are given freedom to perform ceremonies as they wish. Government recognizes the marriages created solely by the secular government controlled processes and regulations. And marriage is between a man and a woman on both regards and both have good reasons to defend marriage equality as being between the recognition of the responsibility and entitlements of both the man and the woman, and the child they potentially have together.

    50 years ago, not only could i NOT marry my fiancee [because he's black, and I'm considered white]

    False. Only in less than half the states of the union would that have been a problem. You could easily have chosen the right state to marry. The Loving couple were legally married, for instance. Not that I'm not glad those laws were done away with, I'm just pointing out that they were done away with in more than half the states by the time Loving came around.

    lesbianism was considered a valid “mental illness” for this treatment.

    But even now when it isn't, equality as we understand it would be disappointed that a woman excludes a male who they just combined with to have a kid (be it sperm donation, or previous marriage, etc...) just because they are of the other gender.

    Freedom of association, to me, means that any two people can have a committed relationship, and on certain grounds (which would include many non-romantic relationships) have that relationship recognized by the state.

    People already have the freedom to contract such a committed relationship, and that empowers the "None of your business" needs to do whatever they want and keep it between themselves.

    When you look at it from all angles, we already have a pretty good system. One that is based on equality (one man and one woman), and freedom (contract and association).

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  3. Hi denelian, thanks for your feedback. On Lawn has already said some things I wanted to say. But there are still some things I want to discuss...

    "well, your definition of "immoral" is certainly the definition that most fundamentalist groups take."

    I didn't give a definition in this entry. I maintain that one can believe homosexual behavior to be beneficial and moral and still make a case for keeping the bride+groom requirement in state licensing.

    There are many different conditions that are inborn. But we still choose whether or not to engage in certain behaviors, and we still choose who we live with.

    "50 years ago, not only could i NOT marry my fiancee [because he's black, and I'm considered white]"

    That was wrong. If I go to my bank and ask for money from my account, and they tell me I don't have one, they are wrong, and the situation will be corrected. However, if my brother goes to the same bank and asks for money, they will rightly tell him no. He can cite the fact that they told me no and that they were wrong to tell me no and they changed, but that still doesn't mean they are wrong to tell him no, because he doesn't have an account there.

    "and, frankly, it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS - not your life, not your marriage, not your business."

    It is none of my business who someone chooses to live with, if they have a religious ceremony, exchange rings, change their names, go on a vacation together, and ask everyone in their life (including their employer) to consider them married. However, when someone goes to the state/county and asks for a license, it become the business of EVERYONE. You see, the government governs by the consent of the governed. Those marriage licenses are issued on our behalf. That makes them our business.

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  4. Men can get multiple women pregnant, women can have children from multiple men.

    If marriage is a personal association that is none of anyone's business, and nothing to do with morality then, well let's repeal all marriage laws and the government doesn't acknowledge any personal association.

    As noted in my latest post, only heterosexual expression of love creates is linked to the obligation to children, even so that if the mother and father are NOT married the government takes the extra step to ensure both parents are equally responsible. Heterosexual couples of differing races can copulate, ATHEISTS can copulate. Marriage assumes both parents are doing their job without government intervention.

    Facts do not matter to gay marriage advocates, they don't care about children or individual rights to know one's true identity or be raised by their own kin. To say that even gay people have a mom and dad, apparently is a hate speech. What matters is them and their gayness and as a society we can't even note reproductive biology in our public policy. Homosexuality isn't a mental disorder, but narcissism sure is.

    For years now in our discussion of marriage, we deal with comments just like delenian. Acceptance and tolerance isn't enough for them, instead the government has become the 'thought police' that someone how human sexuality isn't not based on male + female = procreation model and everything is the same, even though it's different.

    Renee Aste
    Lowell Massachusetts

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  5. hey, thanks, Renee, for taking what i said and getting the exact WRONG info from it. and spelling my name wrong.

    except i have NO CLUE what you took away from my post, aside from the fact that i believe gay marriage should be legal.

    i mean, i CAN'T PROCREATE, because of this disease i have, but *I* could marry my fiancee, because i have an innie and he has an outie.


    truthfully, i would have no problem whatsoever if the government got rid of civil marriage.

    *gasp*


    my issue is that hetero partners can get married and there are priviledges attached to that. the main one that concerns *me* is Medical Power of Attorny - i've had problems getting the local hospital to accept it, even though they are required by law to. my cousin and his boyfriend have it even harder - when my cousin was in ICU and we all thought he was dying, the ONLY person who was able to make legal medical decisions for my cousin was his boyfriend, J, who held medical power of attorny. but because they were *gay* and NOT MARRIED, the hospital REFUSED to accept the lawful medical power of attorny that J held, and we had to GO TO COURT to FORCE the hospital to do so.

    i am not hateful, despite what you try to imply, Renee, and i really wonder why you decided to imply that i was. i said nothing mean, i was very respectful, and all i did was present a different point of view. i certainly wasn't advocating any sort of "thought police" - did i say anything whatsoever that even ALLUDES to such an evil?

    if you don't like homosexuality, then don't be homosexual.

    but i'm pretty certain that your Holy Book quotes the human incarnation of your God as saying "Thou Shall NOT Judge" - and not just once, and in many different ways. don't judge. leave them alone.

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  6. Actually I was pretty right on on your comments. All you care is about yourself, and not about children and the underlining meaning for public policy. Screw the obligations held to children, it's about self-serving identity politics. As you said, you wouldn't care if government got rid of civil marriage. So why are you demanding to redefine it to your wants?

    As a resident of Massachusetts, do you know that a health care proxy is NOT assumed by marriage. My mother in law needs to place my father in law in adult care, and by law the nursing home require him to sign a health care proxy. Every time I enter the hospital even for blood work, they asked despite being married if I have a health care proxy? Even transferring car plates and title, my husband and I are treated no differently as if we are strangers in Massachusetts.

    I'm not judging homosexuality, because the issues of getting pregnant from homosexual activity is not a relevant concern in their relationships. Rather the opposite you falsely assume, I'm judging heterosexuality because it leads to obligations to third parties (children). The reason why we have marriage is because we care that both parents to be equally involved about a child's life. It means we hold that relationship to a higher standard of obligation and restraint.


    It's you that brought up religion, evil, the Holy Book, and judging with your flippant remarks. Marriage is based on biology, not religion. If you don't like Christianity, don't be Christian. No one is forcing God on you, but you can't change mother nature by civil decree that everything is equal.

    You know guys it takes a lot for me to go negative, and we like to keep Opine as respectable as is. But denelian crossed the line, because she can't stay on topic and accuses me of things I have not said.

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  7. i mean, i CAN'T PROCREATE, because of this disease i have, but *I* could marry my fiancee

    Did you just equate homosexuality with a disease?

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  8. Smiling, because the previous dialogue did not disappoint. :)

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  9. yes, Renee, i'm SO SELFISH that i am ADVOCATING FOR A CHANGE IN THE LAW THAT DOESN'T AFFECT ME AT ALL.

    or did you MISS THE FACT THAT I AM STRAIGHT?

    also, my remarks about the Bible and the words of Christ? *NOT* flippant. i meant every freaking word. my PROBLEM isn't with CHRISTIANITY. Christianity is very nice, it's good.
    my PROBLEM is with people who claim to be Christian and then don't act Christian. who Judge. who Dont Turn The Other Cheek. who are Greedy and don't want to Help The Less Fortunate.

    but, hey, ya know, my culture's history of allowing gay marriage *specifically so that there are families without "natural" children than have the resources to adopt children in case of disaster*?
    was deemed "barbaric" and "lessor" by Europeans merely because it was *different*.


    yes, i'm so selfish that i advocate for dozens of things that cannot, in any freaking way AT ALL, affect me - like more rights for pregnant mothers [a state i can never enter, because i have a disease that makes me sterile, despite the fact that i am female], more family advocacy, gay rights [when i'm a straight woman], tougher child protection laws and more education funding [when i am neither a child nor likely to ever have one]. yep, i'm totally selfish and self-centered.

    did you even *read* what i SAID? if "civil marriage" is done away with and replaced with a different systen whereby people can designate their own "next of kin" and etc, then the discrimination goes away.
    because I DON'T LIVE IN MASS! and, so far as i know, no OTHER state allows that sort of automatic proxy. certainly no state that *I* have lived in.

    On Lawn: no, i compared *being unable to naturally procreate* to being gay. but thanks for mocking me and my pain.

    frankly, i'm a bit put off here - i've had a few other conversations with Walrus before, but i've never before been insulted like this.
    i have no clue, whatsoever, where i "crossed a line". i did not attack anyone, i didn't go off topic, i A) listed somethings to Walrus, and then B responded to Renee. who, apparantly, cannot actually read what i said.

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  10. no, i compared *being unable to naturally procreate* to being gay.

    Being unable to naturally procreate, you attributed to a disease. Hence you just equated being gay with a disease.

    If not, do you feel that resources given to people because they are unable to naturally do things that they normally otherwise can, like read or write or walk, should go to people who do those natural things?

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  11. denelian: truthfully, [sic] i would have no problem whatsoever if the government got rid of civil marriage.

    It always comes down to this with supporters of neutering marriage. They'd be just as happy if marriage was done away with entirely.

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  12. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  13. my deepest appologies - i've already taken my pain meds, and had the MOST CONFUSING TYPO. sorry! reposting, typo to be fixed:

    On Lawn;
    sigh.

    as a person who now can't walk, what do you think i'm going to say?

    but no, i attributed a condition that affects a bit more than 4% of the population [sterility/barrenness] with a condition that affects slightly less than 4% of the population [being gay]. the *only* reason i mentioned my disease is so that people know why I, specifically, am barren/sterile - two of my 3 sisters are ALSO barren, and in both of their cases no one knows why [and one of them is my step-sister, and we share ZERO ancestors, so she doesn't have this evil genetic disease i have].
    i could have equally compared those who take Viagra to those who take BC. it doesn't mean not wanting children right now is equal to erectile disfunction.

    as for aid for those who can't walk... i'm not sure if you're trying to be offensive, or if you're just innocently sounding like you're taunting me for all the pain and suffering i've gone thru for the past 3 years. nor am i sure [if you aren't taunting me] what your point is? i'm not advocating spending money to figure out how gay men can carry pregnancies [which is the analoug here to "aid give to those who can't walk]; i'm just saying that, given my cultural background [in that most Native American tribes allowed m/m or f/f marriages in certain circumstances] and everything else about "today", i see zero reason why the government has any right to decide who can marry whom, so long as both parties are able to consent. period.

    Op-ED:
    if you will re-read, you will note that RENEE brought up getting rid of marriage, and i said i "had no problem with the idea". NOT that i, personally advocated for it, just that it isn't necessarily a bad thing, if done correctly.

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  14. i attributed a condition that affects a bit more than 4% of the population [sterility/barrenness] with a condition that affects slightly less than 4% of the population [being gay].

    I don't think gay people find their state to be a "condition that affects" them like your disease affects you.

    Thats all I'm saying about that.

    BTW, sorry about your disease and suffering. I wish you the best in it all.

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  15. [in that most Native American tribes allowed m/m or f/f marriages in certain circumstances]

    That is quite the anachronism though. The way they understood their own marriages is that they were still between two different genders. I don't think gays would accept having one of them pretend to be another gender for the purpose of obtaining a marriage license.

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  16. denelian: if you will re-read, you will note that RENEE brought up getting rid of marriage, and i said i "had no problem with the idea". NOT that i, personally advocated for it...

    And if you "re-read" you will see that is exactly what I said. I did not say you "personally advocated for it." I said you'd "be just as happy." So, thank you for confirming you said what I said you did.

    While you're rereading, reread Renee's comment because she is definitely saying she does have a problem with eliminating marriage.

    ...just that it isn't necessarily a bad thing...

    Yes. Yes it is.

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  17. I should clarify... If the government came down to the point that it could not have marriage based on the logistics that a man gets a woman pregnant, as a way to promote both parents mutually raising their children then the government should repeal all marriage laws then redefining it to something that is not relevant to it.

    It's because I still believe in marriage so much, that laws shouldn't be messing with linguistics, not because I want to eliminate obligations. Even if the government repeals all the laws on marriage it wouldn't necessarily mean banning it. We could still talk about marriage and the meaning and concept could still be discussed as a valued asset to society, right now when ever we want to talk about marriage in terms of an individual having a right to his/her identity of bioloigcal kinship we end up talking about homosexuality all the time.

    Simply stated even gay people have a mom and dad.

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  18. On Lawn;

    yeah, that's a good point, most did have a "Man-hearted woman/woman-hearted man" sort of vibe :) and i grant it's handled differently than current culture handles it - but this is true of dozens of other cultures that allowed similiar traditions.
    on the other hand, the point to be made from "Woman-Hearted Man/Man-Hearted Woman" is more that *gender* is fluid. *I* may be the straightest cis-gendered woman i know, but i am friends with women who are more "guy-like" than my [TMI: incredibly sexy hot] boyfriend; i have a friend who is XXY and presents herself as female; i has several trans friends. people are who they say they are.

    Op ed: i think we are [and possible Renee and I, too] suffering the communication issue of "Rupture". we are speaking of two different things, that sound similar to each other, so we THINK we know what the other means.
    marriage-as-it-is, which is a specific Civil act that is directly derived from *one* religion's notion - and to the exclusion of *other* religions marital ideals.
    when i say "i would not mind government getting rid of current civil marriages" what i am *saying* is, "the government should allow people to dictate their family." not that marriage quo marriage should be abolished, but rather the *religious* aspect taken out of the civil law. because there was a loooooooooooooong period of time when i was the full-time-live-in-nanny for my sister when her husband was deployed overseas; had i been *his* sister, i would have qualified for benefits, had i been his spouse [but EEEEW - i like my BIL but, um, not my type] i would have qualified for benefits; had there been a legal way for me to be part of their CIVIL family, as a dependent [because, to be the full time care-giver to their kids, i couldn't work - and i did EVERYTHING, feeding, bathing, dressing, playing, tutoring, pre-K schooling, doctor's appointments, all of it] i would have qualified for benefits.
    likewise, i know a trio of sisters who live together, who would DEFINATELY benefit by being considered a "family" under US Civil law - with Head-of-Household taxes and etc - who, instead, have shaky paperwork that can [and often is] ignored.

    there are as many definitions of "family" as there are families. but, currently, the ONLY people who "count" as "families" are two hetero married people of opposite sexes [not gender, sex] who are in a Civil Marriage, and any children they may have - NO ONE ELSE can be part of their family [with a few odd exceptions, such as elderly parents being considered so for some military people, but *NOT* for IRS or SS purposes]

    and i think opening it up, to all the variations, would be MUCH better for EVERYONE! because *why* is Grandma in a nursing home? because the way things are, NOW, there is NO help for a family attempting to support Grandma, because she is no longer legally family.

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  19. Renee, marriage isn't about *getting pregnant*. it's about MAKING A FAMILY. and there are DOZENS of ways to make a family that DON'T involve "man gets woman pregnant"

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  20. Again I'm not trying to go negative here, but what you are saying doesn't follow as a matter of logic, even though sounding all cheery and non-judgmental. Seriously, because that is what you are saying. Without the existence of procreation, none of us would exist. Women take the brunt of procreation, and in the name of equality we want men to willing be equal parents without a use of a shotgun.

    If you see the anthropological kinship chart, you don't have to marry to have a family. We have one in our roots, written in our DNA. Some how before even paternity tests, we knew biological kinship plays a big role in how humans survived and lived.

    Homosexual family members play a big role in this, as in the Samoa study that when family were more close-nit and not so fractured gay aunts and uncles played a key role in the nieces and nephews. In evolutionary terms that's how a homosexual gene is probably passed through generations, since gay people aren't interested in having sex with the opposite sex.

    I've been on record that biological gay relatives have more rights in raising their nieces and nephews then to be adopted out to a non-biological heterosexual couple. A gay relative is more likely to keep the personal knowledge of one's parents values and heritage to children.

    Because we live in a diverse society, in which people are of differing religions or no religion at all, instead of utilizing the church's records of marriage/baptisms we rely on secular means of marriage licenses and birth certificates to keep track of things.

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  21. denelian: yeah, that's a good point, most did have a "Man-hearted woman/woman-hearted man" sort of vibe

    Feel free to read up on berdaches.

    we are speaking of two different things, that sound similar to each other

    That's what happens when one creates one's own definitions for words. Once succeeding generations are similarly confused about the meaning of marriage the consequences will be far worse than pain-med induced internet rants.

    marriage-as-it-is, which is a specific Civil act that is directly derived from *one* religion's notion

    Which "one religion's notion?" Buddhist? Muslim? Christian? All cultures and societies have recognized marriage as between man and woman.

    and to the exclusion of *other* religions marital ideals.

    Which "other religions marital ideals" are you looking to add? Polygamy? Incest? Under-age marriage? Divorce? Even societies with state imposed atheism have supported a man-woman definition of marriage.

    i know a trio of sisters who live together, who would DEFINATELY [sic] benefit by being considered a "family"

    Neutering marriage won't help these sisters... unless you are saying removing the man-woman criterion of marriage will make it easier to later remove the "two" restriction on marriage and the incest restrictions.

    there are as many definitions of "family" as there are families.

    People have a right to freedom of association now, without redefining marriage. Choosing a form of association other than marriage, as you have done with your fiancee, is a freedom exercised, not a right denied. If you want to advocate government benefits to these other forms of association you can do that without redefining marriage. The only purpose in going after the term marriage is because one wants to eliminate the purpose it currently serves.

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  22. sigh.

    i give up. i want everyone, male and female, gay or straight, to have access to the SAME rights with those whom they love and want to form a family with.

    yes, this may mean gay marriage, or poly marriages, or line marriage, or group marriage - and so long as A) children are taken care of and B) everyone is happy, i don't see how it's anyone else's concern.

    in my specific case, *yes* i could get married. but my cousin and his love cannot - and so i will have rights that my cousin does not.
    i will have rights my friends-who-are-sisters NEED. and *please* note, On Lawn, that when i mentioned these sisters and etc, i was specifically talking about creating a law OTHER than strict marriage - not "opening marriage" but IN PLACE OF.

    but, yeah. you are refusing to see that "freedom of association" does NOT automatically confer the rights that are NEEDED. all those marital rights, that even parent and child no longer share, once the child is considered a legal adult.

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  23. denelian: you are refusing to see that "freedom of association" does NOT automatically confer the rights that are NEEDED.

    Neither does eliminating marriage, yet you yourself claim you "would have no problem whatsoever if the government got rid of civil marriage." Have you now also redefined the word "NEEDED" or are you simply being dishonest about your motivations?

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  24. if "marriage" as the only form of family created were replaced with a much broader application, i would love it.

    if "marriage" were to go away, so that everything were "equal" i would NOT love it, i just wouldn't cry.

    that's the difference.

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  25. denelian: if "marriage" as the only form of family created were replaced...

    It's not. A family is formed every time a child is born... which is why we NEED marriage.

    if "marriage" were to go away, so that everything were "equal" i would NOT love it, i just wouldn't cry.

    Exactly as I said.

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  26. are you being deliberately obtuse?

    yes, every time a child is born, there is a high potential for a family to be made [and a low potential for the child to be remanded to the state and raised sans any sort of family, but no one ever talks about that one]

    but that IS NOT THE ONLY FORM OF FAMILY.


    it's just the ONLY FORM OF FAMILY THAT IS RECOGNIZED BY LAW. whether one aquires a child by birth or adoption, they have family rights - but two adult sister *DON'T* have family rights. or a parent and adult child. or gay couples.


    THERE IS MORE THAN ONE TYPE OF FAMILY! there are thousands, probably millions, of types of families. many of them come strictly from aquiring a child, by whichever means, but NOT ALL.

    and right now, the ONLY types of families that are recognized by law are those that are "nuclear" - all the other types of families [including, i might add, types of families that conservative Christians espouse, the "extended" family where a grandparent or other relative is PART OF THE FAMILY *LEGALLY*. able to take part in family decisions, including medical, part of the taxed household instead of taxed both separately and at a higher rate...] are either ignored or actively discriminated against.

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  27. denelian: every time a child is born, there is a high potential for a family to be made...

    Wrong. Every child that is born has a mother and a father. That's how biology works. And the less marriage works, the more children will be raised without one or both of those individuals.

    but no one ever talks about that one

    Certainly not those seeking to neuter marriage since their desired change would result in more of that, not less.

    and right now, the ONLY types of families that are recognized by law are those that are "nuclear"

    Wrong, again. Single adoptive parents, for example.

    ...where a grandparent or other relative is PART OF THE FAMILY *LEGALLY*

    Wrong, again, Rosanne Rosannadanna. Before you fly off the handle you may want to check your facts with a tax accountant.

    There's much more to correct, but let me just concede that you are going to be able to generate misconceptions faster than I will be able to correct them. Instead, I'll just remind you that sisters, grandparents, trios, all these examples you are running to have nothing to do with neutering marriage. If you want to advocate for government benefits for these other relationships do so. You can do that without attacking marriage.

    Lawyers and clients, for example, enjoy a "benefit" of marriage, privileged communication. They didn't say "We NEED that right, therefore marriage NEEDS to be redefined!"

    There is only one reason to attack the definition of marriage, and handing out rights isn't it.

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  28. and that, right there, is the unalterable point of Rupture;
    i don't feel that expanding marriage is "neutering" it, and i don't feel that advocating for gay marriage is attacking it. in fact, i believe that by expanding the definition of marriage, it will become *stronger*.

    my step-mother is a tax accountant. in *some* situations, it's *possible* to claim a dependent adult for tax purposes - but in almost every single situation, a requirement is the adult be declared incompetent or incapable. which doesn't apply in many [even most] situations.

    *shrug*

    so long as certain segments continue to feel that marriage can only mean one thing, and that the creation of a family requires a hetero-couple that can reproduce, i'm not sure what the point of conversation is. i can never have kids of my body, chances are *very* good that i'll never be allowed to adopt, because i am very physically disabled - does this mean i can never have "family"? i mean, i can get married, but i have LESS chance to have children than gay couples...

    i knew it was tilting at windmills...

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  29. The problem is not what you are tilting at, but your own instability. Much like Don Quixote....

    i don't feel that expanding marriage is "neutering" it

    Anything which removes the expectation of equal gender representation, is neutering it.

    Perhaps you are avoiding the obvious, feeling in the dark when you could see it plainly in front of you.

    i don't feel that advocating for gay marriage is attacking it

    Every "gay" marriage excludes a whole class of people, just because of their gender. Such intolerance, especially you (in particular) advocating such intolerance, is indeed attacking and diminishing the tolerance, love and support of both genders that makes marriage truly unique and valuable.

    Again, you can feel your way in the dark on this, or you can open your eyes and see what is obviously before you. Marriage equality is to protect the value we put in the differences between men and women. That is worth defending.

    i don't feel that advocating for gay marriage is attacking it

    It can mean many things. Marriage means we equally recognize the responsibility and entitlements of the man and the woman and the child they potentially have together. It is the binding before children come that help parents take true responsibility for the children, and promote their love and tolerance for each other.

    If marriage can't do that (and you are saying it can't when you say it needs to mean just any two people) then what can? You aren't expanding marriage, you are replacing it with something different.

    the creation of a family requires a hetero-couple that can reproduce

    The creation of a family happens when both sexes are integrated, marriage seeks to ensure the equality in each such occurance -- explicitly, by naming "one man and one woman". Because one man and one woman combine to create children.

    If marriage can't do that explicitly because that denigrates someone's choice to exclude a gender, then what can? But to follow that path denigrates the value of that integration.

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  30. what instability are you refering to, other than perhaps my physical deterioration?


    that aside - look, if two people who are sterile, but happen to fit the "1m/1f" rule, can get married and be considered family, what's the difference? i don't see one.


    i just don't. i'm not going to see one - to me, the way i was raised, you marry the person you want to be your life partner and closest family member.
    historical models of marriage are moot, because the background for them is no longer there - women are no longer property [in the US at least!] and we can't be sold, bartered. arranged marriages do happen - but only if the parties consent. stuff that marriage is based on NO LONGER APPLIES.

    and yes, part of marriage was children - but AS CHILDREN - but rather, as perpetrators of one's weath and estate. centuries of time happened when serfs weren't allowed to "marry" in the strict sense of the word [the church might have done a ceremony, but there were NO property rights attached, and werent until 1300s in most European countries]. middle-class people would get engaged earlier, then spend years "bethrothed" earning money to PAY for being wed and registering it - and in the meantime, often lived together as husband and wife anyway; children weren't considered bastards in this case.
    the *ONLY* place "marriage" really resembled what is been advocated today, by "marriage traditionalists", was in the upper classes. and THAT was predicated upon that fact that WOMEN and CHILDREN were PROPERTY.

    i don't want that. i actively refute that sort of marriage.

    marriage, to me [and every single person i know] is the act of taking your life partner and love, and making that person family. so *of course* i have no problem with gay couples getting married - and the only thing that baffles me is how many people CARE, in the negative sense.


    look at the "state of marriage". what's killing it? really, truly, what's killing it. it's not feminism quo feminism - it's the fact that, even now, most of the "traditions" of marriage that are being used are traditions of OWNING PROPERTY. it ALL needs to be upgraded, and brought into line with TODAY'S needs and values. women aren't just as smart and capable as men - they are as necessary to the economy and stability of the country as men. mariage needs to evolve to catch up with how people live NOW.
    YES, protection of children is paramount - and the system we are using doesn't cut it. don't change people to fit the system - that's assinine and barbaric. you change the people to fit the system.

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  31. whoops - the last line got cut there. should read:
    don't change people to fit the system - that's assinine and barbaric. you change the people to fit the system, you have imposed your beliefs on others. instead, change the SYSTEM to fit the PEOPLE.

    not sure what happened there, probably dropped the last few lines in c/p - sorry!

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  32. denellen,

    If I read you right before, you have said that you would support some other new institution for those who need to have their relationship recognized but do not meet the criteria for marriage, such as siblings, or more than two people, etc.

    Where would you draw the line between those eligible for actual marriage, and those eligible for the new institution? And why would you draw the line at that point? What would define the criteria by which we would distinguish those eligible for marriage from those eligible for the new institution? Or did you mean that you wanted marriage replaced with the new institution?

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  33. what instability are you refering to, other than perhaps my physical deterioration?

    The logical instability that Op-Ed keeps pointing to, that you keep pretending away.

    can get married and be considered family, what's the difference? i don't see one.

    One is suffering from infertility, the other is not. I am happy to help people with a disability be enabled to achieve as close to what they could have if they were normally functioning.

    You've tip-toed up to saying that homosexuality is a disease, or a "condition that affects". You keep driving for that understanding.

    But for me, they are not diseased, they are not disabled, so saying that they are no different is like saying I deserve your handicapped parking space because there is no difference between you and me.

    That is just one of the instabilities you are clinging too, that the non-disabled should be given the same "equal(?)" entitlements or exceptions as the disabled.

    i'm not going to see one

    Yet it is instabilities like that you should be much more aware of, not willfully ignorant of.

    the way i was raised, you marry the person you want to be your life partner and closest family member.

    The way I was raised, you find someone who you can depend and rely on to be a good partner in creating and raising a family with. They become your kinship -- through blood -- through the children you create together. Because those children deserve your love and attention because you created them. And your wife deserves your love and support because you share that same responsibility.

    Marriage isn't about loving whomever you want to, its about choosing to love and support the people in your life who most deserve it. And those that most deserve it are the people that you combined with to create new life with, and those who were brought to life by your actions.

    I've asked you many times, and you've not answered, if marriage can't do that because it is too heteronormative (and we can't have that) then what can?

    What so evil about that purpose that I should abandon marriage, and cling to just the adult centered subset of marriage that you suggest?

    historical models of marriage are moot, because the background for them is no longer there - women are no longer property [in the US at least!]

    Your poor understanding of the historic models of marriage is another of your instabilities.

    Women who were property may have been married also, but they were property because of culture and not marriage.

    Marriage has always been about raising the equality of the genders, and worked to help women even in cultures that treated them as property.

    But then, your disdain for marriage, while fighting to extend it, is just another of the instabilities that undermine your own position. I invite you do better.

    but rather, as perpetrators of one's weath and estate. [....] the church might have done a ceremony, but there were NO property rights attached, and werent until 1300s in most European countries

    Just another example of how you undermine your own arguments. Your presentation shows the conflict, why don't you see it for yourself?

    As an aside, religions at that time were the only ones recording and recognizing marriages at all. There was no government bureaucracy, census, or other means as we've been accustomed to today that put government in regulation of marriage. The church was the government at the time, and it even held governance over the nobles.

    An excellent example of this struggle was the Medici family of Italy. Another is the struggles of the German nobles, who later funded the start of a new church after the bold actions of Martin Luther. Yet another example is Henry the 8th.

    Kings were (and still are) coronated by the religious authority of the area.

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  34. denelian: i don't feel that expanding marriage is "neutering" it

    What you "feel" is irrelevant. What you do is important. Removing gender from marriage is the veritable definition of neutering it.

    i don't feel that advocating for gay marriage is attacking it

    And yet you admit you are trying to replace it. That's right, eliminate it and install something different in its place. That's an attack.

    Again, it's not what you "feel" that is doing the damage, it's what you are actually doing. Your very next post ends up being nothing but a rambling, anti-historical bombast against marriage.

    This is something else that invariably happens if one talks long enough to a proponent of neutering marriage. Without fail they begin ranting against the institution itself.

    historical models of marriage are moot, because the background for them is no longer there - women are no longer property [in the US at least!] and we can't be sold, bartered.

    Here you're just ranting against marriage. I said you had an incredible capacity to generate misconceptions and this just proves it. Marriage was never based on women being property. Some societies treated women poorly and modified their treatment of marriage to reflect that, but marriage was practiced even in societies that were led by women who were clearly not oppressed.

    It's funny that neutered marriage activists at once argue that their special interest group of choice deserves the approbation marriage brings and then turn around and paint marriage as a disgusting and twisted institution throughout history that has never deserved our approbation. Such contradiction proves these activists are merely willing to say whatever it takes to accomplish their goal. As I said, there's only one reason to attack marriage and handing out "rights" isn't it.

    ...but there were NO property rights attached, and werent until 1300s in most European countries

    Good grief. Whatever you think was the case in pre-fourteenth century Europe has nothing to do with marriage. That's like arguing against medicine by complaining that doctors before the fourteenth century killed more people than they cured. What determines the value of marriage (or medicine) today is what it accomplishes today.

    look at the "state of marriage". what's killing it? ...it's the fact that, even now, most of the "traditions" of marriage that are being used are traditions of OWNING PROPERTY.

    This is a long debunked myth perpetrated by Marx and Engels who found property rights as the foundation of all evil in the world. Engels in particular envisioned a world where women were sexually non-selective and he saw marriage as a big impediment to that. It's very telling marriage neuterists are so adopting of Engels's rhetoric.

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  35. R.K. to be honest, it's always baffled me that the State supports marriage as a religious rite. and it *does*, otherwise priests and pastors and rabbis and imams and etc wouldn't be "vested in the State's authority" to do so.
    if i were going to change it, i would have the State only care about the creation of a family, whether between adult siblings or newly wed whatevers, and *only* care about "households", not "marriage" - i would return marriage completely to the various religions. so that people could be a "Household" for the sake of the STATE, and marriage would depend upon the religion. the only other stake that the State has is vested in the interests of children, and there would have to be an enforcement of all parties that made up a "household" being responsible for the children there-of.
    i guess sort of like a civil, personal, family corporation, or something similar.
    of course, i've read waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much Robert Heinlein :)
    functionally, i'm not sure it's possible - people [including me!] are attached to the *ideal* of marriage. and marriage isn't a piece of paper, or a set of laws; it's commitment, made between people [possibly God/des(es) they believe in] to be each-other's, period – to “get rid” of marriage *as* marriage, nor am I sure that it's really the best thing – rather, marriage would be a “subset” of a “household”, a specific type...

    but, if there were to be two such systems, one for "marriage" and one for other types of sanctioned "households" that aren't marriage, then the difference would almost definitely be, in my opinion, what the *intent* of said partnership is - is it the intent to be *married*, in the *romantic* sense of the word, or is it sisters who want equal protection and rights and privileges because they've lived together all their lives and will continue to do so? i really can't imagine there'd be much of a problem figuring it out - the systems would be identical [if i could create them] and therefor it would be up to the joining parties to pick the name. with, perhaps, a caveat that if they became *parents*, there are further obligations - a MUCH needed addition. we currently have the IDEA that parent-hood brings further obligations, but they are RARELY divided equally. paying child support is NOT enough, and the rights and responsibilities should be clearly delineated in *ANY* "household" contract, marriage or other, in case parenthood happens.

    i've been thinking and writing and working on this since i was 11 or 12 - i know that it's not MARRIAGE that is the problem, really. it's the fact half of society is trying to move forward and half is trying to drag us back in time. i'm an adult female human being of clear mental faculties: i know who i want to marry. it's sheer, blind luck that i CAN marry him; if something had been different, i would be the lesbian, instead of my sister [the *other* sister, i have 4].

    there is NO perfect system - perfection is for ants. but there are better, more open systems. there are over a dozen countries that allow either gay marriage or civil unions - and all that's happened is the wedding industry got a small boost. i doubt, in the case of non-marital households, even that much would happen!

    i've been thinking about it for decades, and i don't have all the answers. i just know that there ARE answers. and they start with "one size does *NOT* fit all".

    *shrug*

    marriage can be good, it can be bad. but, unless one is invited it, what it *can't* be is public. marriage is an institution that is firmly in the private sphere - hence my statement earlier that it's no one else's business. it's *family* business, ya know?

    although i'm firmly convinced that allowing other types of "households" and marriages WILL be a public good, and bring more stability :)

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  36. If religious marriage is so much different then civil marriage, in understanding and purpose they why are we calling them both marriage?

    -------

    In an alternative universe, I always wondered if we accepted non-marital relationships of value that culturally we developed a name for same-sex relationships. We wouldn't be having such discussions. If a cultural term developed for same-sex relationships, we wouldn't be relying on such cold sounding names like 'civil unions'.

    I say this, because I'm frustrated. I want to in many ways accept the fullness what same-sex relationships can bring. Just this weekend I was visiting my husband's grandmother. She just turned 90. Her niece is gay, totally gay, right down to the bumper sticker and live-in girlfriend. Also this cousin, is the most Christian person you will meet, right down to attending Sunday Mass. We're totally accepting, not only is she but her girlfriend are family and well respected as is.

    So after the party, I was sitting with some cousins who are very close with this cousin. They were very religious protestants, and believe public policy should be biblical based. I was talking about the Samoa study about super uncles, and their eyes lit up with delight that there was an answer in how we should handle this.

    As Christian based theory we are to love, on secular based policy we're suppose to be accountable to our actions, and on scientific view there is a evolutionary function on why someone is gay.

    If gay people existed for all this time, there is a benefit to humanity for gay people to be gay.

    Obviously heterosexuality serves a purpose to procreate, but the only way people who aren't interesting in having sex with the opposite sex is to pass their genes through other nieces/nephews. That is, if you follow the theory of evolution. Homosexuals get to be the 'supers', because honestly that's what many think of husband's relative.

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  37. denelian: i guess sort of like a civil, personal, family corporation, or something similar.

    "Civil, personal, family corporation[s]" don't safeguard society's interest in responsible procreation. Society's interest in them therefore is, at the very least, much less. Still, there is no reason they couldn't coexist with marriage. You are free to advocate for them, but there is no reason to simultaneously advocate deleting marriage.

    There is only one reason to attack marriage and creating new social institutions isn't it.

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  38. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  39. Denelian,

    Sorry for the delete, but we do not tolerate profanity. Please edit for content and resubmit.

    Thanks.

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  40. um - i'm not offended, but i don't know what profanity you mean.
    not that i'm saying there wasn't - i'm sure there was. just that i have no clue what it was. i try to filter, but obviously something escaped. and i don't know what it was - i don't keep copies after it's been published. *shrug*

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