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Monday, March 22, 2010

Rauch: "A woman without a uterus".

Posted by Chairm.

Jonathan Rauch is the author of the pro-SSM book, "Gay Marriage". There are SSMers in the blogosphere who attempt to imitate Rauch's SSM argumentation -- or at least some bits and pieces of it. I think that we might as well consider Rauch in his own words.

Below are snippets from one of the more elaborate attempts to invoke the Sterility Strawman.

Biologically speaking?

What about heterosexual couples in which one or the other partner is sterile? There are millions of them, and they are no more capable of procreating than my [same-sex sexual] partner, Michael, and I are. Some people are naturally infertile, some men and women have had themselves sterilized, some women have had hysterectomies, and of course women past menopause are infertile. Biologically speaking, a homosexual union is nothing but one variety of sterile union, and no different even in principle: a woman without a uterus is no more open to procreation than a man without a uterus.

Rauch misleads by comparing 'homosexual couples' and 'heterosexual couples'. The limit of two does not logically apply to one side of his comparison.

Biologically speaking, human fertility is based on the complementarity of opposite sexes. The absence of the other sex creates a difference in kind, not a difference in degree. Two sexes versus one sex. The scenarios provide a comparison between fertility and nonfertility.

[Click here to read the rest of the blogpost.]

* * *

Biologically speaking, homosexual orientation is not an impairment of human fertility. Not for the individual nor for the "union" or "couple" or a parade of persons of the same sex. Rauch means to use "homosexual union" as proxy for a particular type of same-sex scenario: but any scenario that lacks the other sex is nonfertile and is never infertile nor fertile. It does not become sterile. It is constantly nonfertile. The number one determines that. The number two does not change that. Neither does homosexuality nor heterosexuality. A scenario that lacks the other sex is nonfertile whether or not the individuals are homosexual or heterosexual or othersexual. A lone individual is as nonfertile as a roomful of individuals of the same sex -- regardless of sexual orientation. This is true of all same-sex scenarios even if the individual(s) would be fertile with the other sex.

Note that Rauch will switch back and forth between the "union" (or couple) and the individual. This is very sloppy of him. If it reflects his thinking, that sloppiness is a fatal flaw in his arugmentation. If it reflects his deliberate misuse of language, then, his rhetoric is designed to mislead rather than enlighten.

Rauch misleads by deftly using rhetoric to reposition homosexuality as a biological marker for infertililty. He is really comparing the lack of the other sex with an actual disability. He attempts to recruit the "woman without a uterus". In so doing he invokes, however vaguely and automatically, the notion of a biological basis for homosexuality that is supposeldy the equivalent of the biological basis for human fertility.

Rauch pivoting in circles on a 'fundamental point'.

It may sound like carping to stress the case of barren heterosexual marriage; the vast majority of first-time hesterosexual newlyweds, afterall, can have children and probably will. But the point here is fundamental. There are at least as many sterile heterosexual couples in America as homosexual ones, and every one of them is allowed to marry. If the possibility of procreation is what gives meaning to marriage, then a postmenopausal woman who applies for a marriage license should be turned away at the courthouse door. What's more, she should be hooted at and condemned for breaking the crucial link between marriage and procreation, for stretching the meaning of marriage beyond all recognition, and for reducing the institution to frivolity.

Chairm: His fundamental point should not be obscured by his carping. Read on and search for it, but please note the following.

Rauch asserted that the absolute number of sterile married couples is no more than the absolute number of homosexual couples. Or did he mean the other way around? It is a fanciful assertion either way.

Note his quick switch from couple to individual as he now recruits the postmenopausal woman. And his switch from the general (the meaning of marriage) to the particular (the individual entering marriage).

Put more starkly.

Their real position is that the possiblity of procreation defines marriage when homosexuals are involved, but not when heterosexuals are involved. To put the point more starkly, sterility disqualifies all homosexuals from marriage, but it disqualifies no heterosexuals. So the distinction is not pro-creation (much less pro-children) at all. It is merely antihomosexual.

Chairm: His fundamental point is that homosexuality is a form of sterility. Society does not prohibit on the basis of the individual's sterility so society should not prohibit on the basis of the individual's homosexuality.

But, of course, there is no homosexual criterion for ineligiblity to marry. Just as homosexuality is not infertility nor is it sterility.

In fact, the existence of millions of mixed-orientation marriages disproves Rauch's fundamental point. As does the existence of the children of such marriages. As does the vast majority of those children residing in same-sex housholds who migrated from the previously procreative relationship of mon-dad parents (usually husband-wife union or unwed cohabitation). If the absolute count of particular types of situations matters, as per Rauch's own remarks, then, he has invoked proportionality as a legitimate consideration. He does not pursue it very well nor very far.

Rauch begins and ends with an emphasis on homosexuality. His fundamental point is another assertion of the primacy of gay identity politics in his SSM argumentation.

He has much more to say on this topic.

Manufacturing the insane strawmen.

[M]arriage is about children but not only about chidren. It is also about happiness, security, safety, prosperity, good health, sound mind, altruism, personal growth, sex (the elderly have it, too), and -- did I almost forget to mention? -- love. A state which takes no interest in helping citizens and communities secure these benefits is a very shortsighted state indeed -- which may be why no such state exits. I have never heard of any jurisdiction anywhere which either conditions marriage on fertility or imagines that doing so would be a sane public policy. (Write me if I'm wrong.)

Rauch has said nothing that would differentiate the type of relationship he has in mind, when he favors a gay subset of nonmarriage, such that this type merits special treatment on par with marital status.

He does suggest that same-sex sexual behavior is meritorous and worthy of preferential societal regard. He also suggests that it would be insane for the government not to provide benefits based on "love". He clearly is referring to same-sex sexual love.

Recall his fundamental point: there is no prohibition based on the individual's sterility. And yet is there such a prohibition based on an indivdual's same-sex sexual behavior or "love"? Nope.

To be charitable, Rauch depends on the reader automatically switching from the individual back to the societal meaning of the type of relationship he has in mind. To avoid confusion, he should be explicit about this back and forth movement between the particular and the general. I do not believe he is a lazy writer nor a lazy thinker and so, with regret, I believe this to be a deliberate rhetorical device.

Tap dancing with the indispensable strawman.

To exclude homosexuals, people who hold to the possiblity-of-procreation line cannot just say that procreation is one of a number of justification for marriage. They have to say it is the only justification, or at least the only one worth bothering with, because all the rest -- providing caregivers, domesticating young adults, bolstering economic security, looking after chidren -- can apply to homosexuals. But then,having said that the possibility of procreation is the only rationale for marriage, they immediately sabatoge even that rationale by refusing to apply it to sterile heterosexuals. Here is where the possiblity-of-procreation argument turns destructive: in its fixation on excluding homosexuals, it leaves no consistent rationale for the privileged status of heterosexual marriage. Its advocates tear away any coherent foundation which secular marriage might have -- precisely the opposite of what they claim they want to do. If they have to undercut marriage to save it from the homosexuals, so be it!

Chairm: No, we do not have to say it is the only justification. Rauch is mistaking the shorthand used for the actual meaning of the defense of marriage.

But he continues to describe the type of relationship he has in mind and in so doing he does not differentiate it from the rest of nonmarriage.

The core meaning of marriage is not a "fixation on excluding homosexuals". The special reason for special status is the combination of sex integration and responsible procreation. That's the general idea. It is the marriage idea. But it clearly is not Rauch's SSM idea.

Throughout his book, Rauch tears away at the coherency of this foundational social institution. He does this with a symathetic nod, here and there, to marriage as social institution, but ultimately he undercuts it with narrow and legalistic "gotacha" claims and hyperbolic loopholes.

Worth, meaning, and Rauch's worst idea.

The resulting message is not just peculiar, it is antimarriage. If you say that marriage without the possiblity of procreation isn't worth having, you also say, "We don't care if people who can't conceive kids shack up instead of marrying. Their marriages are worthless anyway. We don't care if they divorce, either. Their commitment is meaningless from society's point of view." I can't think of a worse message for marrige. Or a sillier one.

Mercifully, the possibility-of-procreation crowd is only kidding. In my years of discussing same-sex marriage, I have encountered only two people who seriously suggested that, in an ideal world, sterility should be a bar to marriage. [...] Everyone else either squirms or changes the subject.

The subject is not sterility falsely applied to homosexuality. The subject is marriage, as a social institution, which Rauch would gut of its core meaning. Marriage, thus abandoned, would become a diminished, and desinstutitonalized, social construct. Then it would match the SSM idea.

On balance, it is true that childless marriage is a type of arrangement that is of considerably less concern, societally speaking, than procreative marriage. But marriage integrates the sexes and that's no small matter. Childless marriage entails more societal concern than one-sexed scenarios. For that matter, the gay subset of one-sexed scenarios that Rauch favors is no more worthy of protections than the rest of nonmarriage.

Please note: I referred to "childless marriage" not to marriages. Rauch would confuse the general with the particular on a case-by-case basis.

And, no, marriage defenders do not say that types of relationships outside of marriage are worthless; nor that various types of nonmarital commitment are meaningless, least of all where vulnerabilities are created by the lack of (or diminishment of) sex integration and responsible procreation. There are many types of procreative and nonprocreative types of nonmarital arrangements that are as worthy, or more worthy, of protection as is Rauch's favored subset of nonmarriage. The pro-marriage view is deeply pro-child in regard to the defense of the core of marriage and in regard to extending protections to vulnerable families outside of marriage. Sexual orientation is not a disqualifier.

Rauch blandly puts nonsense into the mouths of marriage defenders precisely because he cannot think of a worse message. "Mercifully" he does not mean it but merclessly he knowingly presents a strawman argument for the sake of his polemic.

The remainder of his remarks on this topic look an awful lot like Rauch squirming to elide the actual disagreement regarding responsible procreation and sex integration.

For now, I'll leave it up to my fellow Opiners and our readership to respond to what Rauch says next:

Rauch's selective compassion.

Even if you believe nonprocreative marriage cannot be as good as procreative marriage, that is no reason to ban it, much less to ban it inconsistently only for homosexuals. Softening the argument, in that sense, only sharpens the blow, because it heightens the contrast between the sympathetic and supportive treatment that barren heterosexual marriages receive and the flat legal prohibition of homosexual marriages. When I see a heterosexual couple who have made a successful marriage despite being unable to have children, I see their devotion as, if anything, all the more admirable. Anyway, the last thing I would think to do is disparage their marriage as frivolous or unworthy, and I can't imagine regarding it with hostility. Why treat homosexual unions with any less compassion?

Rauch's all or nothing.

Another squirm: "But all homosexual unions are sterile. Only some heterosexual ones are. For heterosexuals, barreness is the exception. For homosexuals, it is the rule." Again, no help, unless you think homosexual individuals don't matter as much as infertile heterosexual individuals do. After all, postmenopausal women are also a barren class -- and a large one. No one lumps them together and says, "None of them can procreate. We have to shut them out to defend the link between marriage and procreation." Imagine if infertile heterosexuals all developed a birthmark on their foreheads, making them easily identifiable as a class. Would anybody favor barring them from marriage? Would anyone even think of it?

Arbitrariness is eschewed but embraced.

Just because procreation is a purpose of marriage doesn't mean that only fertile couples should be allowed to marry. Infertile couples, including gay couples, should be allowed to marry. Infertile couples, including gay couples, should be allowed to marry, too. But it appears that, with all this talk of procreation and marriage, we are just wasting our time. The real reason homosexual couples can't marry is that their marrying would violate the very definition ("essence") of marriage, which is that . . . only heterosexual couples can marry! At long last, who knows how many words later, we are back where we started: at "because I said so" or "because God or nature said so" or, really, "because you just can't."

Chairm: Overall, I think the worst message, and the silliest message, that Rauch thought-up was that "biologically speaking" a gay man is a woman without a uterus.

68 comments,:

  1. Chairm writes that "the existence of millions of mixed-orientation marriages disproves Rauch's fundamental point."

    Any support for this claim, Chairm?

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  2. There is support, but would it matter to your viewpoint, really, if there were millions or just a single instance of it? I don't think so.

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  3. Chairm:
    Rauch misleads by comparing 'homosexual couples' and 'heterosexual couples'. The limit of two does not logically apply to one side of his comparison.

    This is a silly argument to make; by this standard, the limit of two does not logically apply to either side of the comparison. A man can easily impregnate multiple women.

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  5. Rauch's description of his sterility argument shows that the actual comparison is of the same-sex scenario and the opposite-sex scenario. You offered an example that illustrated exactly that.

    Surely, neither Rauch nor you meant that homosexuality is sterility.

    In a one-sexed scenario, a man cannot impregnate one man nor multiple men. Adding or subtracting individuals of the same sex does not effect the constancy of nonfertility in the one-sexed scenario.

    That is true if all the individuals are homosexual men or heterosexual men or some mix of homosexual and heterosexual men.

    It is true if the men felt that they were actually women. It is true if the men underwent alterations so that there were women-like individuals in the scenario.

    Rauch talked of fertility, and you talked of impregnation, and those remarks indicated that the limit of two does not logically apply to the one-sexed side of the comparison. Nonfertility is constant on that side.

    On the other side, the limit of two arises from the two complementary sexes; the limit can logically apply. Two sexes together can do what neither sex can do alone. The principles of responsible procreation are applicable to what flows from that obvious fact of human procreation.

    And to be clear there is a range of possible ways in which any given society might respond to the variability of fertility -- including hostility, generousity, or indifference.

    Just as human fertility is variable, so is the potential cultural response to it. However, this makes it all the more remarkable that responsible procreation has been at the core of the social institution of marriage for millennia. And that it has been combined, at that core, with sex integration. The lines drawn around this core also can, and do, vary but the core has remained universal despite the variability of protocols and regulations of the parameter.

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  6. Phil: This is a silly argument to make; by this standard, the limit of two does not logically apply to either side of the comparison. A man can easily impregnate multiple women.

    And if he does, Phil, are all the women he impregnated also the biological mothers of each child?

    Biology limits parenthood to two, which becomes a natural argument against polygamy in the case of opposite-sex unions. No such natural argument can be formed against polygamy for same-sex unions, nor does the natural argument hold once same-sex unions are called "marriage".

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  7. Chairm,
    please support your claim that there exist "millions of mixed-orientation marriages." Or acknowledge that you got caught in a lie (again).

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  8. Miles,

    I think Chairm's reply is more then suited to your question. What does it matter if it is millions, hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, thousands, hundreds, tens or one?

    If that is meaningful, then we can discuss the statistical basis (which is close to assurance but isn't proof anyway).

    So please state why it is meaningful, first. It is only fair so that the answer, should you make such a statement, can fully address that statement.

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  9. Chairm,
    your credibility is on the line. Please support or abandon your claim that there exist "millions of mixed-orientation marriages."

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  10. Miles,

    Actually it is you playing the game this time. You've discredited yourself once before on this matter, it is a shame that you are returning to the same well again.

    Please answer the question of how and why it matters if it is millions, hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, thousands, hundreds, tens or one.

    Chairm has a legitimate point that this is a fruitless line of questioning of yours, and it is up to you to show its relevance.

    If not just for the fairness of being able to more fully meet whatever you find meaningful in this pursuit.

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  11. Folks,

    I want to give a bit of back story here.

    Miles was given a full front page thread to assertions he made, but refused to answer anything about them. And in some cases took arbitrary dismissals of two responses to his, while accepting three others.

    He made a game out of the questions we asked about his assertions. He made a game out of the questions we asked about the arbitrariness of his dismissals. He never did bring his assertions to a point.

    All in all, since it was his point to waste it is no skin off my nose. But after the contest of wills that Miles discredited himself over, we see that Miles has a tendency to create hoops which are meaningless in order to distract the real conversation. The detection of which is based solely on his ability to show relevance for his own questions.

    He also found that when he was forthright in answering questions (which he eventually was, and eventually conceded that his dismissals were without merit) we were easily able to answer his questions. He will find out so again, but he will be accountable for the relevance of his hoops moving forward.

    So, it is with regret that I have to continue to press Miles with the legitimate burden of justifying his "hoops". He has shown his disingenuous use of these hoops in the past, and it is just a matter of keeping him on track to request he justify them, moving forward.

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  13. Miles,

    Redundancy will be deleted.

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  14. miles: your credibility is on the line.

    That's truly funny. Ronnie giving advice on credibility. That's like Bernie Madoff giving advice on fiscal responsibility.

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  15. Just to note something that I think is obvious but missed by Miles. One of the reasons I find his line of questioning irrelevant is that Chairm's assertion wasn't made in a vacuum. Instead it reads as a foil in for what Rauch said...

    What about heterosexual couples in which one or the other partner is sterile? There are millions of them, and they are no more capable of procreating than my [same-sex sexual] partner, Michael, and I are.

    vs Chairm's...

    But, of course, there is no homosexual criterion for ineligiblity to marry. Just as homosexuality is not infertility nor is it sterility.

    In fact, the existence of millions of mixed-orientation marriages disproves Rauch's fundamental point. As does the existence of the children of such marriages. As does the vast majority of those children residing in same-sex housholds who migrated from the previously procreative relationship of mon-dad parents (usually husband-wife union or unwed cohabitation). If the absolute count of particular types of situations matters, as per Rauch's own remarks, then, he has invoked proportionality as a legitimate consideration. He does not pursue it very well nor very far.


    (oops! A keen reader can also deduce the criteria of calculating millions of these marriages have or still do exist, but that is getting ahead of myself).

    The numbers are presented as a foil, meaningful as a proportion of exceptional status more then value.

    So Miles, it truly is up to you to justify why millions is required, as that was mirroring Rauch. Surely Chairm and Rauch feel that even if it was a lower quantity the justification remains.

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  16. Rausch made a true statement:
    "What about heterosexual couples in which one or the other partner is sterile? There are millions of them, and they are no more capable of procreating than my [same-sex sexual] partner, Michael, and I are."

    Chairm made a false statement:
    "[T]he existence of millions of mixed-orientation marriages disproves Rauch's fundamental point."

    On Lawn "moved the goalposts," as he likes to say:
    "A keen reader can also deduce the criteria of calculating millions of these marriages HAVE OR STILL DO exist, but that is getting ahead of myself." (emphasis added) And even this underlying claim still is unsupportable.

    And Op-Ed, as usual, added nothing of value:
    "That's truly funny. Ronnie giving advice on credibility. That's like Bernie Madoff giving advice on fiscal responsibility."

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  20. miles: Chairm made a false statement:

    Prove your statement or retract it.

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  31. Good one, Ronnie. When you run out of things to say, just try to hide that with a spamstorm of unrelated cut-and-paste.

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  35. Op-Ed,
    clearly this is relevant; On Lawn brought it up, after all.
    And as for On Lawn's new tactic of deleting my posts: my repetition is no more redundant than the multiple times he cut-and-pasted his own questions to me in the thread from which I just provided all that material. If I repeat my question, it is because it is being ignored in the hope that it will go away. Chairm made a factual claim--that there exist "millions of mixed-orientation marriages"--and all I'm asking is for him to support that statement, or admit that he cannot.

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  36. Folks,
    in all of those deleted posts, I showed that On Lawn's characterization of "backstory" was faulty. I did this be reproducing the relevant parts of that other thread. Evidently, On Lawn did not like me facilitating scrutiny of his claims. Unfortunately, if you would know the truth, you will have to travel to that other thread yourself (assuming On Lawn hasn't started deleting posts from it as well).

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  37. Miles: please support your claim that there exist "millions of mixed-orientation marriages."

    Not that it's relevant, Miles, but let me just go to one of the first sources I found, a pro-gay site BTW:

    "As homosexuality becomes more accepted by our society, more gay men and lesbians feel comfortable coming out in their heterosexual marriages, though the exact number of mixed-orientation marriages is unknown. Data on these marriages is unreliable because of the inconsistent ways of defining "gay" or "lesbian" in demographic research."

    Nevertheless:

    "Statistics from the Straight Spouse Network contend that up to two million gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals in the United States are or have been heterosexually married. Demographer Gary Gates recently found that of the 27 million American men currently married, 1.6 percent, or 436,000, identify themselves as gay or bisexual."

    Please note that Chairm did not limit his statement just to the United States. We have 436,000 men, married to women, who identify themselves as gay or bisexual. We can add to that at least a comparable (though certainly not identical) number of lesbians married to men. Now, we can probably add to that a large number who were not willing to admit to being gay or lesbian to strangers. Extrapolating this to the world at large, there is no way it will not be millions.

    And if the Straight Spouse Network's statistics are to be used, the worldwide number will probably be no less than 20 or 30 million.

    As has been pointed out, not really relevant, but if you must, there it is. If you want something more specific you'll have to find a way to define "gay" or "lesbian" in a way that's universally agreed on for demographic research.

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  38. miles: in all of those deleted posts, I showed that On Lawn's characterization of "backstory" was faulty.

    False. Ronnie simply vandalized the discussion by cut-and-pasting an entire comment stream. If Ronnie thought the unrelated comment stream showed anything he would have simply linked to it. Comment threads are kept separate to keep them relevant to the discussion at hand. Ronnie's goal in cutting-and-pasting was clearly not to raise a valid point, but to bury one.

    Evidently, On Lawn did not like me facilitating scrutiny of his claims.

    Ronnie is desperately trying to blame On Lawn for his own misbehavior. Comments are to be relevant to the thread in which they are raised. Spam storming is never appropriate.

    Unfortunately, if you would know the truth, you will have to travel to that other thread yourself...

    Oh, the horrors! Having to follow a link. Oh, wait a minute. Ronnie didn't provide a link. Telling.

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  39. Just to remind, Ronnie (aka miles) said unequivocally that Chairm's statement was false. Ronnie, by his own stated standards, must now either back up that statement or retract it.

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  40. R.K.,
    I appreciate your leg work. You have more integrity than On Lawn and Chairm put together.
    Chairm relies on ambiguity in the presentation of statistics. Elsewhere he has argued that the default is the United States; now it will be argued that he meant the world (even though Rausch, to whom Chairm was responding, was talking about the United States, because the issue is, after all, whether allowing gay couples to marry is something we want here in America).
    And do you mean to suggest that Chairm was holding out as an example not only those mixed-orientation marriages that have succeeded, but also the ones that ended in divorce, because they were misguided attempts at sublimation?
    And we're also going to add in a couple more million, just because there have to be some people that aren't telling? Though those people do exist (how many of them is impossible to know), they again cut against the point Chairm was hoping to make, rather than support it.

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  41. Op-Ed,
    I didn't provide a link because, I hate to admit it, I am not that computer-savvy. So, if you would like to help me out, you can link to it; otherwise, I believe the title of the post was "A Guest Post: Assertions on Neutering Marriage," or something like that.
    If I had to provide evidence of the falsity of Chairm's claim, I would begin by pointing out Chairm's refusal to support that claim when challenged to do so. I'm not the one who threw a made up number out there, and when called on it, began arguing that the number is irrelevant anyway.

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  42. You all always make things so difficult. All you have to do is quit making stuff up, and all of these demands that you support your claims would go away. R.K., at least, seems dedicated to discussing issues on the merits. It is a shame more of you don't conduct yourselves in a similar manner.

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  43. And for God's sake, will one of you administrators add the "e" to the end of "Shakespear[e]"!

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  44. Miles, please don't try to play us against each other.

    If it's 990,000 in the United States, that's still enough.

    The issue of whether or not there have been mixed-orientation marriages anywhere worldwide, or how many there have been, has the same relevance to this issue as it would if we were limiting the count to the U.S. alone.

    Miles: And we're also going to add in a couple more million, just because there have to be some people that aren't telling? Though those people do exist (how many of them is impossible to know), they again cut against the point Chairm was hoping to make, rather than support it.

    Chairm: "His fundamental point [Rauch's] is that homosexuality is a form of sterility. Society does not prohibit on the basis of the individual's sterility so society should not prohibit on the basis of the individual's homosexuality."

    "In fact, the existence of millions of mixed-orientation marriages disproves Rauch's fundamental point."

    How does it undercut Chairm's point if many of those in such marriages don't tell questioners that they are gay?

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  45. Miles,

    Actually the funniest part is that you immediately assume that when we don't chase your hoops, it is because we can't. RK came in to help you, not us.

    But you've still failed to show relevance :)

    Note we never challenged Rauch's assertion because whether or not it was true in scale, it was true in merit. But you challenged only Chairm.

    The truth about infertility is that there is only a small fraction of couples which never have a child. Many diagnosed with infertility have either had a child together, or later had a child together. Rauch's assertion was just as ready for challenge as Chairm's, and both just as justifiable.

    Your hoops were nothing more then games. There is no skin off my nose to point that out and hold you to it :)

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  46. but also the ones that ended in divorce

    Also Miles, you realize that there exist many couples who divorce due to infertility -- or even because one wants to have kids and the other does not.

    You keep tiptoeing up to the point that the shoe that Chairm is putting on Rauch's other foot, fits. And fits well.

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  48. Emma,

    Good question, however how many people consider bi-sexual a mixed-orientation in and of itself?

    So then how could bi-sexual not be a mixed-orientation marriage?

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  49. And Miles,

    Administrators on Opine do not have the ability to edit comments.

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  50. R.K.,
    I don't believe for a second that I can play you all against each other. I have observed that none of you ever openly criticizes another Opiner's statements or tactics; if you disagree, you simply remain silent. The thin blue line at work.
    How did you arrive at the 990,000 figure, by the way?
    And Chairm's point survives only by switching the focus from "couples" to "individuals"; Chairm was saying, "Look, there's lots of people who identify as homosexual who aren't in sterile relationships." That there are some people who aren't honest with themselves or others about their sexual orientation lends no support to his point; saying that those people "cut against" Chairm's point may have been too strong; thank you for allowing me the opportunity to clarify.

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  51. Well, whoever is able to correct the misspelling of William Shakespeare's name, please do so. It is an embarrassment.

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  52. I have observed that none of you ever openly criticizes another Opiner's statements or tactics;

    No, its happened. We are from many different backgrounds here, some identifying with liberal, and others conservative, some religious and others strictly secular.

    I have observed that none of you ever openly criticizes another Opiner's statements or tactics;

    Now that is funny. If I were to argue that you are taking any statement of numbers as an bad-faith attempt to divert the discussion, I'd need to look no further then this thread with Chairm. But as if that wasn't enough, you did it again with R.K.

    It is clear that R.K. was saying that if the number is 10,000 less then a million the point was still just as valid. The number was selected as a basis for the comparison, which is valid for the discussion in this debate.

    But it seems when you see a number, you only have one reaction. And it completely misses the point :)

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  53. the misspelling of William Shakespeare's name

    Seriously, no one expects perfect spelling here in comments which are hashed out often as single drafts.

    Relax.

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  54. I'm not talking about a comment. I'm talking about a quote placed in the middle column (look where the "Recent Comments" are listed; beneath that:
    "Were kisses all the joys in bed / One woman would another wed. --William Shakespear [sic]"
    That can't be corrected?

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  55. miles: If I had to provide evidence of the falsity of Chairm's claim, I would begin by pointing out Chairm's refusal to support that claim when challenged to do so.

    Which would only prove that you were also not logic-savvy as that constitutes an argument from silence, which is invalid. There are many reasons Chairm would not respond to your question, irrelevancy being chief among them. Your claim was not that Chairm's statement was unsubstantiated, but that it was out-and-out false. You now need to either back that statement up or withdraw it. That is your own stated standard of conduct. We can now see what you think of your own stated standards.

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  56. Oh, well that is different, and no its not embarrassing. Happily corrected.

    Feel free to play grammar and spelling nazi, it is one of your more useful functions here.

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  57. By the way Miles,

    To embed a link is the same way you embed a link in any web page. Use the "a" tag.

    And no, it isn't embarrassing that you don't know how to make a link, either.

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  58. miles: That there are some people who aren't honest with themselves or others about their sexual orientation lends no support to his point...

    Notice how Ronnie (miles) here asserts the supremacy of his own judgment over those actually involved. He dismisses participants in "mixed-orientation" marriages as not "honest with themselves or others about their sexual orientation."

    What adds to the irony is the statistic he is attempting to discredit is based on self-reported "sexual orientation." So the measure of dishonesty becomes not with how they self-identify, but with how their behavior suits Ronnie's expectations.

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  59. Op-Ed writes:
    "Notice how Ronnie (miles) here asserts the supremacy of his own judgment over those actually involved. He dismisses participants in 'mixed-orientation' marriages as not 'honest with themselves or others about their sexual orientation.'
    "What adds to the irony is the statistic he is attempting to discredit is based on self-reported 'sexual orientation.'"

    R.K., here is your opportunity to prove me wrong. Please set Op-Ed straight, since he seems to be having difficulty following the conversation.

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  60. Now Miles is really wrapped around the axles...

    R.K., here is your opportunity to prove me wrong.

    I like the ominous tone and presentation of a carrot in that sentence. But carrot for what?

    Please set Op-Ed straight [...]

    So what do you need to be proven wrong about, because it seems Op-Ed has already done that.

    To what life-line do you expect R.K. to help you over?

    Miles, I suggest you really take a time out and reconsider what you are up to. If you were in the boxing ring, I'd throw in the towel for you for getting this punch drunk.

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  61. Op-Ed: Notice how Ronnie (miles) here asserts the supremacy of his own judgment over those actually involved.

    Actually, this is kind of funny. I'm remembering how Phil asserted to know that Johny Weir was gay, even if Weir turned out to be happily romantically married to a woman the rest of his life.

    Miles goes further and says, "[t]hat there are some people who aren't honest with themselves or others about their sexual orientation" -- just because R.K. pointed out that not all of those people will identify as gay (though would match Miles' and perhaps Phil's qualification of being gay).

    The specific relevance is that R.K. noted that, on the website he got some of his numbers from we see this concession, "Data on these marriages is unreliable because of the inconsistent ways of defining 'gay' or 'lesbian' in demographic research."

    With such ambiguity, some will not identify as gay though they meet Miles' and or Phil's criteria. But Miles has already made the judgement, not that there is a disagreement over what that identity is. His judgement is that they are not being honest.

    The compare and contrast with Phil on this point is absolutely fascinating.

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  62. On Lawn
    I'm remembering how Phil asserted to know that Johny Weir was gay, even if Weir turned out to be happily romantically married to a woman the rest of his life.

    That's not correct, Lawn. The "happily romantically married to a woman for the rest of [one's] life" is a straw man you created. "Romantically" is a vague term; if you mean that a homosexual man can be attracted to a woman in the same way that a heterosexual man can, I'll go ahead and point out that you're wrong.

    And once again, you ignore the fact that Johnny Weir is a real person. He's not one of your convenient hypothetical examples. You can't make his homosexuality go away by pretending he might become happily romantically married for the rest of his life.

    But if you want to make that a prediction, then do so. Do you think Johnny Weir will get married to a woman, and remain so, romantically, for the rest of his life?

    I made a prediction, so you can test my claim: Johnny Weir will come out, and this will be reported in a major publication within five years of the end of his professional skating career. If I'm wrong, all you have to do is take my bet and you'll make an easy $200.

    Is there anybody else out there who wants to take my bet? Anybody else who is so sure I'm wrong about Johnny Weir that they want to make $200 off of me?

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  63. Chairm:
    Two sexes together can do what neither sex can do alone.

    And does the limit of two still apply when they can't? If a two-sexed couple can't procreate, then you can add just as many people to their unit as you choose to add to the same-sexed couple.

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  64. R.K. knows what I'm talking about. But will he dare point out Op-Ed's error?

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  65. Miles,

    Your bluffing is hilarious.

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  66. Me: >> I'm remembering how Phil asserted to know that Johny Weir was gay, even if Weir turned out to be happily romantically married to a woman the rest of his life.

    Phil: > That's not correct, Lawn.

    Phil contradicts himself in three, two ... one ...

    Phil: > You can't make his homosexuality go away by pretending he might become happily romantically married for the rest of his life.

    So yep, even if Weir does, that doesn't make his homosexuality go away.

    Point and match.

    Also Phil, has Weir self-identified as gay?

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  67. Chairm : >> Chairm:Two sexes together can do what neither sex can do alone.

    Phil : > And does the limit of two still apply when they can't?

    Laughable. How many more sexes are there but two, Phil?

    And what can those two sexes (as a classification, mind you) do that neither can do on their own?

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  68. Is sterility really an issue when homosexuals cannot engage in sexual intercourse, properly speaking, at all?

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