Posted by Chairm
"To treat marriage simply as the seal set upon a (possibly fleeting) sexual relationship, rather than a mutual assumption of the burden of social reproduction, is to deprive the institution of its rationale."
-- Roger Scruton, professor of philosphy at the University of Buckingham, writing in The Meaning of Marriage, 2006.
The marital relationship is transformative. The man makes the woman his wife and the woman makes the man her husband. In the normal course of things, husbands and wives become fathers and mothers. Their children become the next generation of men and women, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers.
First and foremost a social institution.
Across society the social institution works its influence: it makes normative the marital basis for sexual relations and for generating the next generation. This is a public relationship that arises from the two-sexed nature of humankind, the opposite-sexed nature of human procreation, and the both-sexed nature of human community. The human institution of marriage bonds them and holds them together as much as, if not more than, their private sexual commitment one to the other.
Weaken the meaning of the social institution and weaken its rationale; abandon its rationale and abandon the societal preference for marriage.
That is how social institutions are destroyed -- or de-institutionalized. Marriage is no exception despite its foundational importance to civilization. Yet, despite this peril, marriage is a universal institution across the anthropological and historical record. The SSM idea, not so much.
Sexual difference.
In a paper appearing in The Meaning of Marriage, a book of essays by various authors, Roger Scruton wrote that the central issue in society's regard for marriage is "the place of sexual difference in desire and in all that is built on desire."
[Click here to read the rest of the blogpost.]
He explained that the man-woman sexual relationship "is imbued with the sense that your partner's sexual nature is strange to you, a territory into which you intrude without prior knowledge and in which the other and not the self is the only reliable guide."
He continued:
"This experience has profound repercusssions for our sense of the danger and the mystery of sexual union, and these reprecussions are surely part of what people have had in mind, in clothing marriage as a sacrament and in the ceremony of marriage as a rite of passage from one form of safety to another. Traditional marriage was not only a way of endorsing and guaranteeing the raising of children. It was also a dramatization of sexual difference."
Speaking of the not-too-distant past (like 10 minutes ago) when society's preference for the marital sexual relationships was an uncontested social fact of life, Scruton wrote that the coming together of the sexes,
"became an existential leap, rather than a passing experiment. The intentionality of desire was shaped by this, and even if the shaping was -- at some deep level -- a cultural and not a human universal, it endowed desire with its intrinsic nuptiality, and marriage with its transformatory goal. To regard gay marriage as simply another option within the institution is to ignore the fact that an institution shapes the motive for joining it.
"Marriage has grown around the idea of sexual difference and all that sexual difference means. To make this feature accidental rather than essential is to change marriage beyond recognition. Homosexuals want marriage because they want the social endorsement that it signifies; but by admitting same-sex marriage we deprive marriage of its social meaning, as the blessing conferred by the unborn on the living. The pressure for same-sex marriage is therefore in a certain measure self-defeating. It resembles [English King] Henry VIII's move to gain ecclesiastical endorsement for his divorce by making himself head of the Church. The Church that endorsed his divorce thereby ceased to be the Church whose endorsement he was seeking."
I refer to Roger Scruton not as an expert whose words decide the matter but rather as yet another voice who puts forth the view that this is the crux of the matter.
And, in the manner of Scruton's reference to King Henry VIII, I think that the SSM idea is stuck on stupid because it argues against the justification for the special status marriage while seeking to gain this status for SSM.
Same as marriage but different from the rest?
SSM does not share with marriage the centrality of sex integration. Nor the centrality of responsible procreation. SSMers remind us of this all the time. The SSM campaign has pretty much denounced the importance placed on marriage as social institution and instead has emphasized marriage as legal creature owned by Government. Well, for the sake of argument, let's suppose that SSMers are right on these points.
What then is the SSM idea's essential features? That is, what is the stuff without which SSM would not be SSM, in their view of Government's creature?
SSMers continue to fail to distinguish the type of relationship they have in mind (aka SSM) from the rest of the types of relationships and types of living arrangements that are also in the nonmarriage category. They fail to show that the essentials of the SSM idea are 1) shared by marriage and 2) not shared by nonmarriage. Many don't even bother to try.
On the the other hand, they unfailingly begin by pointing at Government licensing while skipping past the type of thing that is licensed. That is, the pre-government thing; the thing that exists before pinning the label and license and status on it.
But they do openly emphasize gayness. They do seek societal endorsement of gayness -- via license and special status for SSM. Yet they insist that objective and societal reasons for showing preference for marriage are superseded by the subjective and personal motivations of those who demand that society issue licenses.
With such thinking, SSM argumentation runs a winding path upon which many SSMers become disorientated and lost. But ultimately they are blunt: the essentials of marriage are not the business of society, they say. It is far more a matter of privacy rather than public regard. Government is not society, they assert, and what's more, Government dictates to society.
Leave us alone and treat us special.
And yet, even at that, with personal motivations superseding societal concerns, and with Government seperated from and looming above the governed, they say that low participation rates and low interest in same-sex householding are irrelevant factors. SSM is not a good means to deliver government benefits to a largely nonparticipating homosexual population. Nonetheless, they are convinced that society as a whole must give special treatment to this SSM idea and this marginal practice. Their end justifies their means.
This is a poor substitute for the marriage idea, for the principles of good governance, and for the rationale for special place of marriage in civilization. It is a dangerous idea to complain about the supposed arbitrariness of marriage law and then to rely on the arbitrary exercise of governmental authority to impose a merger of SSM with marriage.
Patched together from remnants and self-referential dogma.
The SSM idea is hacked together from the remnants of various academic arguments that conceptually deconstruct the social institution of marriage. But this is a fragile fabrication and depends on the dogma of identity politics to glue it together.
SSM is not an organic social idea and nowhere is it but a marginal practice -- in whatever form -- within the modern homosexual population itself. This is the case even in heavily pro-gay places.
Contrary to the SSM campaign, the SSM idea is not one and the same as the marriage idea. Nor does the SSM idea self-justify. Nor does it self-sustain. Its "truth" is not self-evident. It is an idea rich in fatal contradictions and impoverished by the lack of essential features. Its argumentation is self-defeating.
But the hardline SSMers make it abundantly clear that SSM is not intended to sustain itself nor to justify itself. Nor to become a rich depository of meaning that is evident even to the most sympathetic neutral observer. The SSM idea is not a social construct for shaping homosexual behavior. Its purpose, and likely outcome, is not to make the practice of SSM normative for the homosexual population; the purpose of the SSM idea is to make homosexuality normative for the rest of society. To get from here to there, the marriage idea must be quashed. The SSM idea is driven by a leap of faith in the primacy of gay identity politics. As I've said before, for these hardliners this is not about justice but about "just us". And so they arrogantly self-reference and thus reveal the true meaning of their endorsement of the SSM idea itself. It is their idea and they believe, on faith alone, that it is their gift to society. Of course, it would be a gift imposed rather than a gift freely accepted. And one with repressive reprecussions.
Trojan Horse. Where's the threat?
Worse of all, the merger of marriage with SSM can not be sustained without Government enforcement of the hostile notion that the core meaning of civlization's foundational social institution, its rationale, is intolerable.
That is the reason that SSMers have come to demand that the big hand of Government become the servant of identity politics of the gaycentric kind. It began with pleas for tolerance and has rapidly progressed to demands for crushing dissent and opposition both in the law, social policy, and culture.
The marriage idea does not come with this political baggage. It is an organic idea that has sustained itself for millennia. Its opposite-sexed basis is sexual, social, moral, and conceptual.
The threat of the SSM campaign is that this rich inheritance will be squandered for no good reason. Indeed, to reject the core meaning of marriage requires an extraordinarily good reason for such an extraordinarily destructive act of Government.
None has been forthcoming.
Congratulations, Chairm. This is a well written exposition of your theory of marriage. Unfortunately for your side, though, I do not believe it resonates with the majority of younger people.
ReplyDeleteBy and large, the people that vote to prohibit gay couples from marrying do so because they've been taught that homosexuality is sinful and that gay people are to be feared. Sure, there are apologists like yourself who can come up with a plausible argument against allowing gay couples to marry; but most people voting your way couldn't follow your reasoning with a map and a guide. While what you've written may be foundational for you and some others, for most it is simply pretext (or, for those who don't fear gay people, gibberish).
"Why shouldn't gay couples be allowed to marry like everyone else? What harm would that cause?" These two questions are the bane of all who argue against allowing gay couples to marry. Your inability to come up with short, crisp, concrete, and believable answers to them sounds the death knell for your side.
"Why shouldn't gay couples be allowed to marry like everyone else? What harm would that cause?" These two questions are the bane of all who argue against allowing gay couples to marry. Your inability to come up with short, crisp, concrete, and believable answers to them sounds the death knell for your side.
ReplyDeleteAh, the "your side only understands simpler answers" argument.
As far as persuading the general public, Miles, those questions you posed haven't worked so well for your side either. And as for short, crisp, concrete, and believable answers, all that has to be pointed out is that we're not talking about ourselves but about our children and grandchildren. That has turned the numbers back significantly to our side in referendums.
Really, all we mainly have to point out to the public is two things:
1. Children are going to be taught under SSM that marriage is just between "any two persons". Unless, of course, those arguing otherwise contend that children will in fact never get taught about marriage at all in schools (or through the media), or that when they are they will still be taught that it's between men and women as it was. Trying to deny this didn't work in California and it didn't work in Maine, because it was obvious that those denying it were arguing from chicanery. ("It's not required in the statutes, so they won't learn a thing about it". Nobody fell for that).
2. SSM proponents need to be asked just what are the limits to who can and cannot marry, and to explain the limits in a way that is not obviously inconsistent with their arguments for SSM. (Note how its supporters here run away from this challenge).
The public can understand these points quite well, if these points are used properly, and really only the first has. The issue of the second has been approached but in the wrong way by people like J.D. Hayworth. If people would just ask SSM supporters what the new limits are and to explain why those limits hold any better than the one they wanted broken, rather than bring up the subject by stating that SSM "will" lead to one or the other thing which the public does not accept, any gains your side makes will be quickly erased.
Miles (writes)
ReplyDeleteYour inability to come up with short, crisp, concrete, and believable answers to them sounds the death knell for your side.
Your insistance on "short & crisp" answers reveals the anti-intllectualism of your side.
The fact of the matter is the left & the right are in agreement about what changing the definition of marriage does to the marriage culture.
It's just that one side thinks this change is progress and the other thinks it regressive.
What sophisticated thinking people know ulimently works it's way down to the masses. This battle has just started. Impending SCOTUS decisions and multiple State Constittional Amendments will coninue to give us time to get the word out.
There is one thing that is certain about young people: they grow up. Their opinions change as they gain more experience about life & about issues like family formation.
Your anti-itleectualism and your lack of faith in your fellow man's ability to deal with sophisticated issue's ulltimentley stems from your persecution complex over being gay.
This is were your reasoning starts to look childish and self-serving.When people are confronted with the specter of same-sex "marriage" they first think NOT about gays...but about marriage, about children needing mothers & fathers, and the timeless and the sacred nature of the institution.
There going to continue to take that seriously because it it a serious subject.. and as people like Chairm continue to hone their arguments the word will ocntinue to spread..
"A lie can get half way around the world before the truth gets its pants on"
R.K.,
ReplyDeleteyou raise a couple of good points. Mention kids, and people do tend to lose their heads. I will admit that your #2 poses some difficult questions. Contributors to this site would do better by focusing on a polite discussion around those questions, rather than carrying on the way they do.
Fitz,
you are confident that young people will grow out of their tolerance. We will see.
Miles (asks)
ReplyDelete"you are confident that young people will grow out of their tolerance."
They werent tolerant to begin with, they are just answering in the polticaly correct way. Even under this regime the percentage of young people who are for gay "marriage" is alot less then people think.. People under 30 spilt almost even 50/50..
But when you have other questions on the same subject like..
Do children deserve a Mother & a Father?
Are children best raised in Homes by their own Mother & Fathers?
Is marriage the union of a Man & a Woman?
or
Should we redifine the insitution of marriage?
or
Is marriage between men & woman important for society?
These type of questions poll overwellmingly for the traditionalists..
I think you will find when you look at it that young people (who are impressionable) & peopel in general dont so much agree with gay advocates philsiophically, as they are trying to "be nice" or say the poltically correct thing..
Just the fact that you have to hide behind the term "tolerance" is telling.
These are serious issues with serious implications...
We have had a myriad of gay marriage advocates come to this sight..
The best ones always argue from a principled position and acknowledge the gravity of what they are proposing.
Fitz, it is noteworthy that SSMers denounce the defense of marriage as intellectually inferior, but have no answer for a rigorous defense of the marriage idea.
ReplyDeleteMatch the marriage idea against the SSM idea and marriage wins.
Indeed, challenge the SSM idea with the supposed standards of argumentation that SSMers routinely use to attack marriage and SSM defeats itself.
So this 'anti-intellectual' ploy is not really about intellectual honesty nor length of 'sound bites' nor even the rigors of debate. Rather it is about contesting the indoctrination of youngsters.
When a good argument is made for marriage, SSMers complain that it is too complex or too demanding. When the argument is made briefly and with the use of words that have useful and common meaning, the SSMers seek to diminish meaning and to obscure plain language. There is always a rhetorical tactic to attack the content of the pro-marriage argument. The most common is the one deployed upthread: attack the messenger, one way or another, and assert inevitablity of the defeat of marriage.
As for making the case plainly, and in terms that people understand readily, I think the opening part of my blogpost -- the part above the fold plus the part about sex differences -- is pretty much the popular argument that turned a 10-15% defict in public opinion polls into a victory on election day in California in 2008.
And that part of the argument was augmented by the part about the nature of the threat that the SSM campaign poses to good governance and our liberties.
Messages that work depend on deep content to back them up; and without such content no superficial cover of emotionalism can support the rule of law.
I think that also has been seen in the wake of the anti-8 campaign against the CA marriage amendment. The SSMers depend first on emotionalism but have very little in the way of depth of argumentation. This can have a temporary influence on young people, sure, but as you and RK have said many times in many discussions, people grow up.
And I think we, as a society, should look to the accumulated wisdom of human civilization and its greater influence on people. Rather than project into the future an infantile society, we stand on firmer ground by encouraging the maturation of each generation who will have in their hands the inheritance that is our moral and cultural duty to pass on to the next generation. That sense of duty is powerful and has been invoked both with emotion and reason.
The balance is needed. Indeed, I think the core of marriage is an obvious lesson that emotion and reason, sensibilities and intellectual rigour, are compatable rather than at odds. This is the human condition. And marriage is foundational because it runs do deeply and is so transformative.
The SSM idea, not so much.
Is marriage between men & woman important for society?
ReplyDeleteI think the answer to that statement is "yes," and I'm a strong supporter of marriage equality. It's a false dichotomy to suggest that one cannot believe that society benefits from both same-sex married couples and mixed-sex married couples.
I'm not one to say that young people are always right about everything, but I think the cultural trend of young people being more tolerant is not necessarily going to dissipate when they get older.
There are things that some of the (presumably) older contributors to this board are willing to type publicly that would be unfathomable for many progressive young people to say to their gay friends. This is a cultural shift; many people over 30 grew up in a time when it was commonly believed that gay people were inferior. And certainly, many posters on this board acknowledge that they believe gay couples are inferior to straight couples, regardless of the level of commitment.
Children are going to be taught under SSM that marriage is just between "any two persons".
ReplyDeleteThis argument is specious. Its logic is this: anything that we don't want children to be taught in schools should be banned by law.
In my opinion, pro-same-sex marriage campaigns have been far too meek in pointing out the ridiculous and far-fetched claims made by slick anti-equality campaigns.
It's as though the talking points for the anti-equality side are so ridiculous and irrational that various gay organizations don't want to stoop to calling them out.
The SSM idea is inferior to the marriage idea.
ReplyDeleteI've gay friends who acknowledge that much -- even if they support the SSM merger. SSMers, gay or not, by their own comments, admit that the SSM idea means less than the marriage idea.
Meanwhile, hardline SSMers are very open about imposing their version of political correctness on all discussions and all who participate in such discussions. Hence the reluctance of many people to speak directly about the difference in the richness of the marriage idea and the poverty of the SSM idea.
When well-intentioned people hedge due to a desire not to offend the easily offended, that's no basis to criticize those who don't clip their words to dance around the rhetorical tactic of SSMers to feign offense and victimhood.
The routine ploy of such SSMers is to name-call and cast aspersions on the character of those who disagree with the SSM merger. I've not encountered an SSMer who has managed to refrain from such quick resort to deliberate insult. Doesn't matter how well the argument is made, nor how gentlely it is communicated, nor even how sympathetically it is presented. But the truth is that the SSM idea is inferior to the marrige idea.
Under an SSM merger the core meaning of marriage would not be tolerated. SSMers concede that this is their preference and that is a natural outcome of the pro-SSM viewpoint, but they contend that implementation is a desirable but not an automatic outcome.
ReplyDeleteThat's not how the SSM idea is treated under the marriage status quo.
Miles: > I do not believe it resonates with the majority of younger people. [...] By and large, the people that vote to prohibit gay couples from marrying [...]
ReplyDeleteThere you have it Miles' position is as shallow as stereotypes.
Your inability to come up with short, crisp, concrete, and believable answers to them sounds the death knell for your side.
Which is why state after state voted for it, including California and Maine?
You probably need to re-think that. However, if it makes you feel better your position is appreciated as a more succinct version of Dale Carpenter's strategy :)
Phil: This argument is specious. Its logic is this: anything that we don't want children to be taught in schools should be banned by law.
ReplyDeletePhil, are you saying that we will not teach children that marriage is between "any two persons" if SSM becomes the law. After all, that will be the law then, won't it? Or are you saying that children won't, or shouldn't, be taught about marriage period? Or that they will still be taught, or should still be taught that it's between a man and a woman?
I certainly do not think that anything that we don't want children to be taught in schools should be banned by law. With regard to SSM, however, I've yet to hear any advocate of it say that it will not or should not be taught to children in school at some point, only the argumentative chicanery about the state education statutes not officially requiring it, which is not the same thing.
Oh, and yes, if I really thought it would not be taught to children that marriage is "between any two persons", I would be less strongly opposed to SSM than I am. I've repeadedly asked SSM advocates whether they insist on a cultural understanding of marriage that it is just "between any two persons", or would be satisfied with a cultural understanding of marriage that it was something between a man and a woman unless....
So far, every SSM advocate I've asked has either said the latter would be unsatisfying to them, or has evaded the question.
My line from above: "I certainly do not think that anything that we don't want children to be taught in schools should be banned by law" should read "I certainly do not think that everything that we don't want children to be taught in schools should be banned by law".
ReplyDeleteMiles, thank you for the very civil and honest response at 1:06 PM.
ReplyDeleteJust one thing I would disagree with, though:
Mention kids, and people do tend to lose their heads
"Lose their heads" is the wrong term. It would be appropriate to say, however, that when the issue of the children is raised, it brings up many of the questions, doubts, uncertainties, and apprehensions many people have about what life under a degenderized public definition of marriage would be like for future generations.
Among the questions people have, even when they can't articulate them well, are:
1. Will children be more likely to engage in homosexual activity under a public definition of marriage (and by extension of romance and courtship) that is merely "between any two persons"?
2. Will children be more likely than before to declare themselves homosexual before they even reach adulthood and take the time to really be sure about this?
3. Will children be more likely than before to declare themselves bisexual?
4. Will more children engage in bisexual experimentation in their school-age years?
5. Will there be subtle pressure from many quarters for children to engage in bisexual experimentation? Or perhaps even not so subtle?
6. Will children's sense of any relation between procreation and marriage be further broken?
7. How will the ingrained idea that marriage....and romance/sex....is just "between any two persons" affect children's peer relations? Will their ability to form strong non-sexual friendships be strained by the underlying idea that the friendship just could, maybe, become sexual?
And this list is not exhaustive.
Please note: I'm saying that these are among the things that people wonder about even if they don't always articulate them well, and they are concerns that cannot be so easily be brushed off. Hence, whatever the case, they should not be simply dismissed as being silly or stupid.
Now, I know, the response of some will be "So What? Why would this be a bad thing if it did happen?" I don't wish to get off on a tangent about that, I'm just saying that right or wrong, many people don't believe these things would be good, hence saying "so what" doesn't help the SSM side if they're trying to reassure the public that these concerns have no merit.
R.K.,
ReplyDeletethank you for taking the time to respond.
In my opinion, your list (with the exception of #6) demonstrates my point: many people oppose allowing gay couples to marry simply because they have a problem with homosexuality.
My answer to your questions is a slightly nuanced version of the one you anticipated: "Probably not to any statistically significant degree, but if I'm wrong, would that really mean the end of the world?" I am unwilling to advocate that government intentionally disadvantage families headed by gay couples, merely on the chance that doing so will discourage a statistically insignificant portion of the population from engaging in sexual experimentation that experts believe is not only harmless, but natural and healthy.
You are right that such an answer will not reassure a certain percentage of the public; those people largely were reared at a time when society was more homophobic, and, sadly, the effects of that are hard to shake. Please don't misinterpret me to be dismissing all those people as hatemongers; homophobia entails an irrational fear of homosexuality, not hatred for gay people. Some very fine people are, nevertheless, homophobic; I remain intent on seeing the good in people. As a favorite poem of mine (by Joaquin Miller) goes:
In men whom men condemn as ill
I find so much of goodness still;
In men whom men pronounce divine
I find so much of sin and blot,
I do not dare to draw a line
Between the two, where God has not.
R.K.
ReplyDeleteYour list is very well though out. Its not a subject we directly confront here at opine very often.
It obviously ligetimete subset of what happens when you neuter marriage.
The fact is we know from histroy (Greece for example) that you can raise the number of people who identify and practice homosexuality.
Some physcologists think it could be as high as 20% of children could self identify as homosexual if theory had the proper conditioning.
As you say these are rational fears people have for the sexual lives of young people in their DEVELOPMENTAL years.
But for the gay subset these fears can never be considered rational because they entail the homosexual looking at what might have contibuted to his homosexuality.
That list could be augmented by Dennis Pragers remark that school children can be asked (under a regime of same-sex "marriage)
Child: I want to grow up and get married
Teacher: Well: Do you want to mary a little Boy or a little Girl?
Child: ????
The fact of the matter is that same-sex "marriage" has to be taught in the schools. And not simply refrenced but taught. Its the nature of the Beast.
Same-sex "marriage" will be were they want it...in the History books beside slavery, segregation, the civil rights movment, suffarage, the woman rights movment and all the rest of the grand "sweep of history" there narative demands.
So it wont simply be taught that same-sex "marriage" is right- but that opposition to same-sex "marriage" represents that narrow minded bigotry that is rightfully marginalized and stigmatized in any foreward thinking society.
Phil: It's a false dichotomy to suggest that one cannot believe that society benefits from both same-sex married couples and mixed-sex married couples.
ReplyDeleteNo, it isn't. The statement that society benefits from both kinds of marriage is an amphibology on the term marriage. It means something different when applied to man-woman couples than to same-sex couples. When applied to man-woman couples it refers to the child-centric institution. When applied to same-sex couples it refers to the adult-centric one. Phil-logic accepts amphibologies as sound. Reality does not.
Its logic is this: anything that we don't want children to be taught in schools should be banned by law.
False. Phil-logic is just that out of touch. The argument is that we should not change the definition of marriage at law if we don't want our children to be taught that new definition.
What will be the impact of teaching our children marriage is just another of the adult-centric institutions out there? What has been the impact of a generation of Americans raised on the notion of no-fault divorce? We have dozens of available adult-centric institutions today, limited-liability partnership for example, that nobody considers forming before they have children.
If people like Phil really thought same-sex couples need an adult-centric institution to take care of them he would argue for creating an adult-centric institution to do just that. Instead, he simply argues that we get rid of marriage and make it adult-centric. For all its noise about "rights" and "protections," it is clear what the campaign to neuter marriage is really about.