Posted by Chairm.
Here is a quote from Phil, who frequents the comments:
Nothing about reproduction is used as a criteria in issuing marriage licenses. No facet of actual reproduction matters one whit when we're talking about mixed-sex couples. [...] That's simply the way every state in America works. [...] Or is there some example of a state where being "reproductive" is required for a relationship to merit a marriage license?
-- Phil Thibedeaux @ 3/11/2010 11:43:00 PM.
Back up the truck, Phil.
[Click here to read the rest of the blogpost.]
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What is being licensed?
Society issues licenses based on the thing being licensed. The licensing criteria do not self-justify. It is necessary to begin with marriage itself.
What makes marriage worthy of special treatment in our society?
What are the essentials of marriage such that it is different from other stuff -- other types of relationships?
Backup to before society pins the label "marriage" on this particular type of relationship. Before a special status is assigned to it. Before a special status is even considered necessary for society's recognition of the essentials of this type of stuff.
Marriage is a social institution, first and foremost, and is not a creation of government. The marriage law recognizes this thing, marriage, and the special status is due to the social institution's core meaning: sex integration, responsible procreation, and these combined as a coherent whole.
From this the licensing scheme follows. It is not the other way around.
Society justly discriminates between marriage and other stuff.
Phil has revealed in his comments that he operates on a false assumption: that to permit a man to become a husband, by marrying a woman, and to permit a woman to become a wife, by marrying a man, is some sort of unjust sex discrimination against men and women who'd choose a different type of relationship.
The integration of the sexes is how the man makes a wife of a woman; and how a woman makes a husband of a man. It takes a man and a woman to form a mating pair; it takes a man and a woman to comprise a fertile couple; it takes a man and a woman to provide children a father and a mother. None of this is code for unjust sex discrimination against men and women. The meaning of marriage is not sex-neutral; and marriage does not exclude either sex.
Also, responsible procreation is embedded in the marriage law. This is the marital presumption of paternity whereby the husband is presumed the father of children born to his wife during their marriage. This presumption is active upon consummation of the marriage (i.e. through coitus). It is vigorously enforced in our legal system.
A Sexual Type of Relationship.
The sexual basis for this central presumption of marriage provides the criteria for recognizing the union of husband and wife as a public sexual relationship meriting special status. It is the default position that the union is sexualized and that it will be consummated and that it will be monogamous. This sexual basis is also expressed in our legal system's grounds for annulment, divorce, and so forth. That sexual basis is extrinsic to the one-sexed scenario.
However, the marital presumption of paternity also entails criteria for its rebuttal, on a case-by-case basis. These criteria begin with the sexual basis of marriage. The system protects the child, the parents and their marriage; it also protects the integrity of the social institution itself. One way this is done is by the recognition that there is a deeply private aspect to the public sexual aspect of marriage. For instance, the government does not send inspectors to peer into the marital bedroom of newlyweds nor does the government force man and wife to engage in specific sexual behavior. But, for the presumption of paternity and for grounds for annulment, the legal system provides for the private aspect to be brought into the public sphere -- by either the husband or the wife.
A Type of Relationship: Public Because Sexual and Sexual Because Public.
These provisions are how the treatment of the sexual aspect of marriage, and the sexual basis for both sex integration and responsible procreation, has manifested in our legal system. This in no way declares that there is no sexual basis to the public recognition of the social institution. This sexual basis does not transfer to the one-sexed scenario. Some other secondary or tertiary aspects of marriage might, but not this sexual basis for marriage.
What is SSM supposed to license?
Now, if we are to take Phil's comments at face value, we'd expect that the argument for SSM is based on a type of relationship whose essentials are what makes that type of relationship standout from the rest.
We'd expect that these essentials are sex-neutral, as per his comments. And we'd expect that given there is no sexual behavior requirement, and no sexual orientation requirement, explicitly provided in the licensing scheme where SSM has been imposed, that Phil is okay with keeping the sexual aspect (if any) out of the public regard of SSM.
Because Phil would treat marriage just as he envisages SSM, he is also arguing that marriage's sexual aspect be removed from public regard of marriage.
SSM Licensing Cares Not One Whit About Sex.
That leads to problems such as why would society have a special status for "marriage" if it is sexless, in public regard, and if it is severed from responsible procreation, also in public regard? What might be the special reason or reasons for the special status of this type of relationship?
Or, while backing up the truck, we might ask if Phil is against the special status that is accorded marriage, in the first place? I have asked. His arguments, and his stated pro-SSM viewpoint, strongly suggest that he can offer no reasons for special status for marriage, much less for this or that version of the one-sexed type of relationship he has in mind.
On the societal level, marriage must become as meaningless as SSM. SSM is a hollow idea: licensing SSM would be licensing nothing more than a conceptual mess. That should not be merged with marriage.
Edges Inward vs Core Outward.
SSMers are quite eager to attack marriage -- as a social institution -- and to assert as the status quo that the government owns this foundation of civil society. They are fond of deconstructing marriage from the edges inward, rather than defending the type of relationship they have in mind from the core outward. Hence Phil begins with licensing as the master of marriage rather than with the type of relationship that the licensing is setup to serve.
Licensing is not the beginning. The begining of marriage, in the law, is the societal reason(s) that the law recognizes this thing at all. And the thing that the legal institution reflects is not built from the outside inward. The legal entitity is not a monument that floats in the air; it is built on what the social insitution is, at its core, and as such the legal institution regulates the parameters of marriage.
If there is a right to marry, then, it is a right to something. And that something is forming a certain type of relationship. Through licensing, and the special status that follows, society shows preference for that type of relationship which is distinguishable from other stuff -- before the label and status is attached to it. On a case-by-case basis there is little in the way of screening; but what screening or gatekeeping exists is to serve the social institution into which people enter when they agree to marry. Societal consent is joined with the consent of the couple (as individuals and as a pair -- bride and groom). But this begins with what marriage is, what makes it special, what makes it different from other stuff. The licensing serves to reinforce the pre-existing social distinction so that the rest of society may officially know who is and who is not married.
Society Responds to the Core of the Social Institution.
Putting the law aside, the fact remains that across the anthropological and historical record marriage has existed to unite the two sexes and to provide for the bond between both parents (mom and dad) and their children. The parents are responsible for their offspring; and the children come into the world with a birthright to both parents. How society responds to this core of marriage may vary, from culture to culture, from generation to generation, sometimes wisely and sometimes not, but respond it will.
As for SSMers who insist that marriage now be deemed sex-neutral, or sexless even, and who demand that the core of the social institution be severed from the legal insitutition, they put forth a viewpoint that is anti-marriage.
Anti-marriage because that viewpoint cuts marriage off from the special reason for its special status. Anti-marriage because the pro-SSM viewpoint would demote the core meaning of marriage below even that of protective status to that of a barely tolerative status. Indeed, the core meaning of marriage would be trashed as intolerable bigotry. Trashed in the law and, through the force of government, in the culture as well.
What Would SSM Licensing Care One Whit About?
The SSM campaign emphasizes gayness, gay identity politics, and argues that the merger of SSM with marriage would make normative homosexuality. It argues that the status quo -- marriage's opposite-sexed sexual basis -- is disparagement of gayness, gay identity politics, and homosexuality.
But the licensing of marriage cares not whit about that stuff. Marriage law is about marriage. On the other hand, SSM argumentation is about these other things that serve a nonmarriage purpose.
And yet...
No SSM law has made gayness a legal requirement for a license; no SSM law has made same-sex sexual behavior mandatory for consummation, annulment provisons, nor for adultery-divorce. No SSM law has lived-up to the supposed standards of argumentation that SSMers, such as Phil, recite endlessly while they attack marriage.
Discrimination between SSM and other stuff?
What are the legitimate criteria that would flow from the essential(s) of SSM? Typically, SSMers can offer only the glibbest of efforts to answer. And then they flee from justifying the eligiblity and ineligiblity distinctions that they assume, mistakenly, can be automatically borrowed from marriage. Mistakenly, because their SSM viewpoint rejects the core meaning of marriage from which these boundaries are drawn.
Drawing Lines Justified by the Core Meaning.
The core meaning of marriage does matter, more than "one whit", when it comes to the protocols of consent to marry; when it comes to drawing the line at which related people are eligible and which are ineligible; when it comes to the age requirements; when it comes to the limit of one union of husband and wife at-a-time.
The licensing begins with the type of relationship, not with this or that particular instance of a "relationship". The lines are not arbitrary impositions from the edges but are boundaries around the core meaning.
And, contrary to SSMers who complain that the core meaning of marriage is brought up only to limit same-sex scenarios but never to limit opposite-sex scenarios, these lines of eligiblity are justified by the public sexual aspect that SSMers persistently attack as irrelevant to marital status, licensing, and lawmaking. The typical marriage law on licensing is explicit in excluding opposite-sexed scenarios.
Drawing Unjustified Lines Around SSM.
To what do SSMers expect society to respond when looking at the type of relationship that SSMers have in mind? If it is not sexual, and if it is sex-neutral, and if it is severed from civil society's foundational institution, then, what's left, really, to license, much less to accord special status? I've asked this and the answer that comes back is nothing that would distinguish SSM from the rest of the types of relationships and types of living arrangements that are in the nonmarriage category -- most of which are not sexualized, are not defined by sexual orientation, and are actually two-sexed rather than sex-exclusive.
Besides, that pro-SSM complaint is the central theme of the SSM campaign. That is, they stand against the arbitrary exercise of governmental authority. But they arbitrarily want to borrow the lines of eligiblity, and the justification for drawing such lines, rather than defend those lines on the basis of whatever might be the essential(s) of the relationship type they have in mind.
Even if offered in good faith discussion, this central theme of the SSM campaign is not credible. It destroys their own demand for merging SSM with the special status of marriage. How can they attach marital status to SSM while denying the special reason for that special status? I think this part of SSM argumentation is stuck on stupid. And since it is such a huge part of SSM argumentation, its profound flaws render the whole enterprise as one big self-defeating heap of nonsense.
Their argumentation is an attack on all the boundaries because it is an attack on the core around which those boundaries are justly placed. They carry the burden of justifying boundaries (if they can) as part and parcel of their pro-SSM complaint and arguments. They cannot expect the core of marriage to continue to do the work of establishing and maintaining boundaries the basis of which they have derided as unjust.
Before they can reasonably argue about the criteria for licensing, SSMers need to state their criteria for SSM itself (what are its essentials?) and for drawing lines, justly, around that much. If they'd refuse, they'd lose because they'd abandon their own stated standards.
[Modified 13 Mar 2010]: I've added a link to the quote at the top of this blogpost. The link goes to the comment section from which the quote from Phil was taken. Phil's meanderings in that comment trail exemplify the sophistry of SSM argumentation as presented by the SSM campaign in general. SSMers could make better arguments, however, their goal is not protection equality but rather Government favoritism for their favored subset of nonmarriage.
I'm honored that my comment merited a whole blog post.
ReplyDeleteI think you misunderstood the nature of my comment regarding issuing marriage licenses. I'm focusing on state discrimination. The state issues marriage licenses, giving permission for couples to marry. The state does not necessarily perform all marriages, though it does choose which marriages to recognize.
You act as though I'm using "marriage licenses" as an inappropriate synechdoche for marriage itself, but that wasn't my point. Since the state can, and does, recognize marriages that it wouldn't necessarily issue licenses for, the discrimination in the issuing of marriage licenses is a shorthand for the discrimination itself, not the marriage itself.
My interest is only in promoting marriage equality at the state level, not at the church or spiritual level.
You wrote several paragraphs in service of your concept of the "core" of marriage. I'll sum up what you said: Marriage is a license to breed.
If marriage were exclusively a license to breed, then it would be reasonable for the state to discriminate on the basis of sex. However, as I illustrated, marriage is not exclusively about breeding, and there isn't a single state in the union that treats it as such.
I would argue that the core of marriage is commitment, although marriage entails many other things. But it's the commitment between two consenting adults that marriage laws seek to recognize and protect. This commitment is better for a couple's children, it's true, but it's also better for the couple and better for society.
That this commitment has a sexual element is nice, sure, but same-sex couples are just as capable of sexual activity as mixed-sex couples. Unless you mean that the state has a vested interest in prescribing sexual positions for couples?
Your philosophizing also ignores the needs and behaviors of actual, real-life people. Ask a man who has been married for sixty years what it is that made his marriage successful. If he says, "My wife's vagina," then you've got a case, Chairm. If not, then perhaps you should consider that a penis penetrating a vagina is just one of many elements of marriage, and nowhere near the "core" of marriage.
Don't be so quick to flatter yourself, Phil. The quote from your comment served as an example of the deeply flawed nonsense marketed by the SSM campaign. You are welcome to that dubious honor.
ReplyDelete* * *
I correctly understood you to be deeming the licensing scheme as the place to start. Meanwhile, in your comment here, you have given a dishonest account of the previous comment trail. (I've added a link in the blogpost.)
Your penchant for revisionism is noted. It is not worth arguing about.
* * *
Not a word in my blogpost was said of church or spiritual levels.
* * *
This is the umpteenth time that you got it wrong regarding responsible procreation.
But you have just confirmed that you'd define marriage by the licensing scheme, contrary to your previous denial. As I said, the starting place is marriage, not licenses.
* * *
Commitment features in a wide range of relationship types outside of marriage. Commitment, and consent, count as nothing unless you can identify that to which commitment and consent is given. And even at that neither commitment nor consent is a trump card for eligiblity to marry. Nor for eligiblity for most other stuff, besides.
Your latest comment has confirmed the conclusion of my blogpost.
* * *
The sexual basis for the union of husband and wife, as a type of relationship, is not merely "nice", but it is essential to its public aspect. That sexual basis is not sex-neutral -- and it is not one-sexed -- but it is opposite-sexed. And, as I outlined, the societal interest in the public-sexual aspect also has its deeply private aspect.
The SSM campaign talks out of both sides of its mouth: on one side gayness is all-important to the demand to change the marriage law; and on the other side there is no public-sexual aspect that justifies the special status of marriage in our laws. Using such sophistry returns SSMers to a self-contradicting reliance on the arbitrary exercise of governmental authority to favor gayness and to disfavor the special reason for the special status of marriage that the SSM campaign supposedly craves for a subset of nonmarriage.
* * *
Actual people are born equal, of a man and a woman. And successful marriages teach by example that there is great merit in sex integration; that there is great merit in responsible procreation; that the social institution is an inheritance not to be squandered in the name of the foolish games of gay identity politics.
And, as per your many comments on the topic of genitals elsehwere in discussions at Opine, you have again demonstrated the juvenile way that your vague SSM idea lacks a core meaning and is instead an outright attack on marriage.
Your remarks about breeders and about coitus is a blatant example of pro-gay bigotry spouted in aid of an unjust attack on the core of the social institution of marriage.
Phil: > I'll sum up what you said:
ReplyDeleteI know what that is supposed to mean, but the context and usage by Phil alludes that it might have another meaning for him.
Instead of being an actual summary, I've seen it used almost exclusively by Phil to mean "I'd rather knock down this strawman then deal with what you actually said".
I wouldn't have summed up Chairm's authorship as marriage is a license to breed.
Just noting.
Meanwhile, in your comment here, you have given a dishonest account of the previous comment trail.
ReplyDeleteChairm,
Here you are falsely accusing me of being dishonest, implying that I've lied or claimed I said something I didn't. Then you link to "the comment trail" to provide a shield for your falsehood.
It's fine to accuse me of misunderstanding you, and you're welcome to accuse me of being wrong. It's even okay to engage in a little hyperbole in a blog comment. But if you're going to pretend that I was "dishonest," then please quote the exact instance from the "comment trail" that you think establishes this. Your accusations of "dishonesty" are false, but they can't be refuted when you aren't actually specifying what claim was dishonest.
Chairm,
ReplyDeleteIs it or is it not accurate to say that, in your view, the sexual basis of marriage requires a penis penetrating a vagina?
You may find it uncouth of me to put it into words, but you're the one putting forth the concept. So is that an accurate description of the "sexual basis of marriage?"
I wouldn't have summed up Chairm's authorship as marriage is a license to breed.
ReplyDeleteThat's fair to say, though obviously I don't think my analysis was unreasonable based on what Chairm wrote.
"Breed" wasn't meant to be pejorative in this instance--all animals breed, after all. But I'm sure Chairm considers his analysis to be more sophisticated than what I presented.
I don't think my analysis was unreasonable based on what Chairm wrote.
ReplyDeleteI'll agree that the problems between what was written and what you claim was written, is more then egregious. I suspect dishonesty also, but that is just me. Certainly the main point is that what Chairm wrote is far more meaningful then what you keep reducing it to. And often you reduce it into a contradiction with what Chairm actually wrote.
Then the problem is once again your reading comprehension. If you want to understand what Chairm feels is the core of marriage, then you can feel free to use Chairm's own words from the article above, "the social institution's core meaning: sex integration, responsible procreation, and these combined as a coherent whole."
In the matter of licensing, as Chairm also said, "Society issues licenses based on the thing being licensed. The licensing criteria do not self-justify. It is necessary to begin with marriage itself."
Chairm's point is simply that to understand marriage, you look at marriage -- not the license to be married. You can no more understand what marriage is from the license, then what driving is from the license.
He has a very valid point. It is easy to come up with a reasonable set of concerns that have produced the various licensing laws of each state. It is also easy to come up with these reasonable conjectures with full acknowledgment of the purpose of marriage being rooted in our humanity, its sociality behind mating and raising children in families.
Is it or is it not accurate to say that, in your view, the sexual basis of marriage requires [...]
Phil, you do realize that your question is vacuously tautological. The basis of "sexual" is already a binary dimorphism of biological reality of reproduction. Any sexual basis will, it follows, be sexual.
(You'll remember the obvious contradiction you were caught in earlier over the nature of what sex is).
So, as a service to you I simply remind you that the flaw is already in your logic, even as the premise of a question.
Organs are not objects, nor sculptures. Organs by definition a fully differentiated structural and functional unit in an animal that is specialized for some particular function.
You can only be intentionally missing that fact after all our efforts to have you be aware of that. And if not aware of it for yourself, at least you can be aware that we know it and are not the best marks for your ignorance-makes-right routine.
Phil, the sexual basis for marriage is not reduced to your juvenile version of all that I had said in the blogpost.
ReplyDeleteBy your reductive sayso you confirmed that you have begun with the license instead of with marriage. And you did it with juvenile naivete.
And with that you continue to dodge the fatal problems in your viewpoint. Those flaws were described in the blogpost.
But, contary to your comment @ 3/13/2010 01:25:00 PM, you offered no analysis of what was actually written. You might imagine that your misdirections are reasonable, but that's a discussion you'd best engage between your own two ears. Here the topic is summed-up in the title of the bogpost: "Licensing Marriage begins with Marriage, not licenses."
Before you can reasonably argue about the criteria for licensing, you need to state the criteria for SSM itself (what are its essentials?) and for drawing lines, justly, around that much. If you'd refuse, you'd lose because you'd abandon your own stated standards.
* * *
Phil, you were not accused of being dishonest, however, my observation is that the account you presented is untrustworthy, untruthful, dishonest.
If you feel sore about the word, dishonest, because you feel it reflects only on you rather than on the account you've given, then, you may substitute incompetent or accident prone.
"I correctly understood you to be deeming the licensing scheme as the place to start. Meanwhile, in your comment here, you have given a dishonest/incompetent account of the previous comment trail. Your displayed penchant/ predisposition for revisionism/ misrepresentation is noted. It is not worth arguing about."
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhat make a marriage successful is that they worked together in either raising a child(ren) or coping with infertility. One of the factor in the first movement of feminism (mid-late 1800s) was to make men accountable who were abusive and wasted their money on booze.
ReplyDeleteActually to claim sex has nothing to do with reproduction ends up being misogynist. Homosexual couples never have to worry about birth control/family planning. Every sexual contact with the opposite sex, has to weigh potential pregnancy. Men don't get the brunt of pregnancy and birth, so the only way to may them accountable is through vowed obligation and commitment to the woman.
Pregnancy, birth, and children can be wonderful things, considering we're all created from the heterosexual "mix couple" equation. In our DNA both maternal and paternal, one of each sex. Children as individuals deserve each parent to be obligated to their well being, much cheaper if both parents live under the same roof and are willingly love one another.
Sexual behavior is discriminating. People like to think sex has nothing to do with babies, and only their personal satisfaction, but according to evolution it's the only thing that got us all here. Lots and lots of heterosexual sex between with one man and one woman, considering how far generation-ally we can make our family tree.
Another article regarding heterosexual relationships/unwed pregnancy/single mothers/welfare.
ReplyDeleteUnwanted men, we need you to curb the welfare Amazons
Sunday Times London
"Already we have what the tabloid newspapers call an epidemic of single motherhood — young women who have chosen to have babies on welfare, without husbands or boyfriends. One in four mothers is single and more than half of these lone mothers have never lived with a man and survive on welfare.
As many of these women become grandmothers, a new pattern has emerged of three generations of mothers without a man in the house — lone granny, lone mum and fatherless children, all expecting the state to stand in for daddy, as of right. These women are not so much welfare queens as matriarchal dynasties of welfare Amazons.
In a study presented to the Centre for Policy Studies (CPS), the sociologist Geoff Dench argues from the evidence of British Social Attitudes surveys since 1983 that there is a growing number of such extended man-free families: “Three-generation lone-mother families — extended families without men — are developing a new family subculture which involves little paid work.” "
"The problem with this new type of extended family, Dench says, is that it is not self-sustaining but tends to be parasitic on conventional families in the rest of society. In fact, it appears to lead inexorably to the nightmare of an unproductive dependent underclass.
Clearly one of the worst problems with such a subculture is that although it’s not self-sustaining it has a powerful tendency to replicate itself. A boy in such an environment who grows up without a father figure is much less likely — for many well documented reasons — to turn into the sort of young man a girl could see as a desirable husband. A girl who grows up without a father never learns how important a man could be in her own child’s life. She will not see her mother negotiating an adult relationship with a male companion, so she won’t know how to do it herself or imagine what she is missing. "
So, as a service to you I simply remind you that the flaw is already in your logic, even as the premise of a question.
ReplyDeleteYou typed a lot of words in response to a yes/no question, On Lawn.
I never said that a penis isn't an organ.
What is the point in making assumptions about the mindset of the person asking the question, and pretending that the question is unreasonable, when the question was so clearly stated?
If the sexual basis of marriage requires a penis penetrating a vagina, say yes. If it does not require that, say no.
But don't whine and bitch as if I'm being unfair to Chairm by asking him directly about something that he alludes to.
Any sexual basis will, it follows, be sexual.
So, is the answer to my question "yes," On Lawn? Are you worried that putting what you actually believe into plain English will make you seem petty or ignorant?
You typed a lot of words [...]
ReplyDeleteWow, you can at least recognize a lot of words. I wonder when you'll try comprehension rather then quantification as a tool in your analytical arsenal :)
I never said that a penis isn't an organ.
Sure thing, if it makes you feel better I never doubted for a moment. But whether or not you know what an organ is, that is a different question.
pretending that the question is unreasonable
A vacuous question is unreasonable. There is no need to pretend.
But don't whine and [...]
Oh, poor Phil. It is funny when you make your own contradictions. It is funnier when you make strawmen. It is even funnier when you imagine theatrics behind the written word :)
So, is the answer to my question "yes," On Lawn?
Look up "vacuously true" sometime. Since your question is a tautology that sexual basis is sex, any response is vacuously true.
will make you seem petty or ignorant?
No, I don't think I've ever worried that you would make me look that way. That would be like worrying that I look more like a clown then a painted face, baggy pants person standing next to me :)
But don't think I didn't notice you didn't respond at all to the points I raised. Are you afraid if you did so you'd actually look like you care about what it means to be human? :-D
Phil - perhaps this will help
ReplyDelete“Though a male and a female are complete individuals with respect to other functions – for example nutrition, sensation, and locomotion- with respect to reproduction they are only potential parts of a mated pair, which is the complete organism capable of reproducing sexually. Even if the mated pair is sterile, intercourse, provided it is the reproductive behavior characteristic of the species, makes the copulating male and female one organism”
“it is a plain matter of biological fact that reproduction is a single function, yet it cannot be carried out by an individual male or female human being, but by a male and female as a mated pair….”
noteing this though experiment
Imagine a type of bodily, rational being that reproduces, not by mating but by some individual performance. Imagine that for these beings, however, locomotion or digestion is performed not by individuals, but only by biologically complementary pairs that unite for this purpose. Would anybody have any difficulty understanding that in respect to reproduction the organism performing the function is the individual, while in respect of locomotion or digestion the organism performing the function is the united pair?
A vacuous question is unreasonable. There is no need to pretend.
ReplyDeleteBut the question can only be "vacuous," On Lawn, if you are jumping to conclusions about my motive for asking it.
I realize that jumping to conclusions about a person's reasoning is standard operating procedure for you when it comes to debate, but don't fool yourself into thinking that makes you right.
Here's your opportunity to devote a few more paragraphs to the verbal equivalent of fanning yourself and rolling your eyes, saying, "How dare you ask such a question! It is beneath me!" Come up with a bunch of adjectives to suggest that a simple, straightforward question is asinine, devoid of intelligence, stupid, etc.
Really, type as many words as you can to avoid stating that in your view, the sexual basis of marriage requires a penis penetrating a vagina.
Even if the mated pair is sterile, intercourse, provided it is the reproductive behavior characteristic of the species, makes the copulating male and female one organism
ReplyDeleteFitz,
Is it your belief that a homosexual male ought to mate with a female? I think that's where your philosophy gets hazy.
I would agree with the statement that, ideally, a heterosexual man should seek to form a committed, monogamous relationship with a heterosexual woman.
Similarly, ideally, a homosexual man should seek to form a committed, monogamous relationship with a homosexual man.
Would you agree with both statements? That's where your analysis is unclear to me. It's not that I don't "get" that men can mate with women. But are you saying that gay men ought to mate with women, too? Or are they just so unimportant to your worldview that their lives are inconsequential? (Or some other option--you tell me.)
Phil
ReplyDelete"Is it your belief that a homosexual male ought to mate with a female? I think that's where your philosophy gets hazy."
I did not go into what I believe homosexual men or women should do... So I dont know how you can start devining my philosophy (hazy or not)
I was simply pointing out how a coupulating male/female pair is unique to all the world.
Homosexual men & woman are not inconsequential to my world view, they are simply not implicated in marriage.
The fact that the overwellming amount of people are heterosexual and onlyu heterosexual males & females can reproduce leads me to focus the vast amount of my philosophy to promoting responsible procreative and sexual activity amoung that unique pairing.
Phil,
ReplyDeleteYou obviously didn't look up "vacuously true".
Do so before continuing to embarrass yourself :)
On Lawn,
ReplyDeleteYour misuse of the terminology of classical logic does not embarrass me.
If it's vacuously true, what is the false antecedent?
Homosexual men & woman are not inconsequential to my world view, they are simply not implicated in marriage.
ReplyDeleteIn that case, I'm curious, Fitz. Because right now, many gay men and women are seeking the right to marry their chosen same-sex partners. Your views on marriage seem to include the notion that gay men and women ought not seek such a right.
So, what should they do? What's ideal, in your opinion? Should they seek a stable, long-term relationship with someone of the same sex?
Phil, you closing questions are irrelevant to the topic of the blogpost.
ReplyDeletePhil: > On Lawn, Your misuse of the terminology of classical logic does not embarrass me. If it's vacuously true, what is the false antecedent? [reformatted]
ReplyDeleteSo silly.
You do realize that your question doesn't have an antecedent? Because it is pretty plain where I'm sitting that it didn't have a conditional, nor a pronoun (nor a mathematical ratio if you want to get technical). It was not a formal if-then clause...
So once again you over-constrained by taking a division of a concept that you don't understand its purpose as a whole.
As I stated: "Phil, you do realize that your question is vacuously tautological. The basis of 'sexual' is already a binary dimorphism of biological reality of reproduction. Any sexual basis will, it follows, be sexual."
As the wikipedia said, "Furthermore, the fact that S is true doesn’t really provide us with any information, nor can we make useful deductions from it; it is only a choice we made about how our logical system works, and can’t represent any fact of the real world."
It is vacuous in how meaningless a "true" answer is for marriage or anything else, because true is built into the question by tautology.
And the purpose of having you read that article was to assure you that your question wasn't "making assumptions about the mindset of the person asking the question", and that the answer was true but meaninglessly so because of the tautology.
Phil: But the question can only be "vacuous," On Lawn, if you are jumping to conclusions about my motive for asking it.
ReplyDeleteFalse. "Jumping to conclusions about...motives" is unrelated to whether a question is vacuous.
I realize that jumping to conclusions about a person's reasoning is standard operating procedure for you when it comes to debate...
False. This is simple insult in lieu of argument.
...but don't fool yourself into thinking that makes you right.
Vacuous.
Here's your opportunity to devote a few more paragraphs to the verbal equivalent of fanning yourself and rolling your eyes...
Hypocritical. Jumps to conclusions about a person's reasoning.
Really, type as many words as you can to avoid stating that in your view,...
Hypocritical. Jumps to conclusions about On Lawn's motives.
Phil (to Fitz): I would agree with the statement that, ideally, a heterosexual man should seek to form a committed, monogamous relationship with a heterosexual woman.
Why?
Similarly, ideally, a homosexual man should seek to form a committed, monogamous relationship with a homosexual man.
Again, why?
But are you saying that gay men ought to mate with women, too?
Misleading and unjustified. Fitz never mentions "gay men" at all, let alone what "gay men" ought or ought not do.
Or are they just so unimportant to your worldview that their lives are inconsequential?
Misleading and completely unjustified.
Phil (to On Lawn): If it's vacuously true, what is the false antecedent?
Already answered. "...the flaw is already in your logic, even as the premise of a question."
In that case, I'm curious...
That's an understatement!
...right now, many gay men and women are seeking the right to marry their chosen same-sex partners.
Self contradicted.
So, what should they do?
Vacuous. Here's a question for "curious" Phil. Many men want "the right" to fly so they are seeking to change the definition of sky to be "more inclusive" of the ground. What should they do? What is ideal in your opinion? Should they fly? Should they stay on the ground?
So of Phil's last half-dozen or so comments, the only legitimate point Phil has made was to declare himself "curious." Going all the way to the beginning of this thread, I still can't find any legitimate point Phil has raised. If anyone sees anything I may have missed, Phil included, please feel free to point it out.
ReplyDeleteSeriously. Anything at all. I'd like to believe Phil isn't just wasting his and everyone else's time here.
Phil Thibedeaux (asks)
ReplyDelete"In that case, I'm curious, Fitz. Because right now, many gay men and women are seeking the right to marry their chosen same-sex partners. Your views on marriage seem to include the notion that gay men and women ought not seek such a right."
They should not... By seeking such a right they are underminding the very idea that marriage is between men & woman and children need mothers and fathers. I find this to be self-centered in the extrmeme.
"So, what should they do? What's ideal, in your opinion? Should they seek a stable, long-term relationship with someone of the same sex?"
If thats what they find important than perhaps they should, but this need not implicater the state much less redifing marriage.
Your concentration on what 3% of the population "should do" amidst 70% illegitamacy rates & 50% divorce rates and the like reveal the callousness of the gay agenda.
This blog, Opine was founded by men & woman deeply concerned about the state of the instiution of marriage. We understand how it works and how it is NOT working for woman, children & the poor.
The gay plea for social acceptance through the vehicle of marriage ends up looking terribly small in comparison to the social problems plauging the instiution of marriage.
What makes a point legitimate op-ed? Are “legitimate” points those that op-ed agrees with? If that’s the case, I suspect I have made few points with which you agree.
ReplyDeleteBut if you’re asking for points that are valid, here are a few.
1. Marriage is not exclusively about breeding.
2. The core of marriage is commitment (to each other) between two consenting adults.
3. A penis penetrating a vagina is just one of the elements of a marriage, and nowhere near the core of marriage.
4. Since a question (a request for more information) does not state a truth, a question cannot be “vacuous” unless you know something, or make assumptions about, the reasons it was asked.
Many men want "the right" to fly so they are seeking to change the definition of sky to be "more inclusive" of the ground.
ReplyDeleteFalse. If you are aware of men in such numbers that there are "many," feel free to provide evidence of their existence.
If you dispute my claim that there are, in fact, gay men or women seeking to marry their chosen partners, I can also provide you with links and articles.
Your concentration on what 3% of the population "should do" amidst 70% illegitamacy rates & 50% divorce rates and the like reveal the callousness of the gay agenda.
ReplyDeleteThat would have merit, were it not a false dichotomy. One can be concerned with a minority of the population and also be concerned with illegitimacy and divorce rates. Fortunately, the latter are not exacerbated by the former; it's possible that legal, optional same-sex marriage might improve marriage statistics somewhat, but the case for equality doesn't hinge on that.
If thats what they find important than perhaps they should, but this need not implicater the state much less redifing marriage.
Your answer here is dismissive. That doesn't disprove your points, of course. But the question was not out of line.
The original post dealt with marriage, specifically with defining legal boundaries such that some couples are excluded.
If a municipality decided to set boundaries for a public area, such as a park, so that homeless persons cannot sleep there, then it is not unreasonable to ask, "So where should they sleep?"
If you responded, "They can sleep where they want, I don't care!"--it reveals something about your character.
Phil (writes)
ReplyDelete"That would have merit, were it not a false dichotomy. One can be concerned with a minority of the population and also be concerned with illegitimacy and divorce rates.
The problem with this Phil is that the cultural left has a track record. Iyt is on record as to what it thinks of divorce as a soical problem and illigetamacy as a social problem. Even if I were to concede that you yourself care about these much larger and more consequestial problems; I would still be left with a much larger movment that does not concede that divorce rates or illigetamacy rates are a problem to begin with.
They are well on record as concedering family formation to be incosequential to society and have fought the forces trying to address these problems at every turn.
"Fortunately, the latter are not exacerbated by the former;"
This is a naked assertion and one that is very much in question. Not only do asocial conservatives believe that same-sex "marriage" will weaken the traditional family, but the social left largley agree's. The only differenace is that the social left finds such fragmentation to be progressive socially rather then regressive.
Not only do asocial conservatives believe that same-sex "marriage" will weaken the traditional family [...]
ReplyDeleteSocial conservatives draw a blank when they try to demonstrate how legal, optional same-sex marriage would weaken the traditional family, because the definition of "weaken" is less measurable than, say, a person's sexual orientation itself.
This isn't unique to social conservatives, of course. Everyone picks and chooses the data that supports their theories. Are social conservatives concerned, for example, about the preposterous hypothetical mixed-sex couples who, while committed to the "traditional" notion of family, might choose not to marry specifically because same-sex couples also have the right to marry? Do social conservatives care about the couples currently living with children who have publicly stated that they will not get married until same-sex marriage is legal?
It's fair to say that both sets of couples are choosing silly reasons to refrain from marrying, but only one side is valuing hypothetical silly couples over real-life existing silly couples.
What you fail to realize is the average homosexual is just a pawn in this plan. They have been radicalized to push for this change & told that anything less is a negation of their humanity.
ReplyDeleteTheir intellectual leaders however are not as ignorant. They think the traditional family is archaic and patriarchal and welcome any social change that will weaken the institution.
some of the most influential sociologists in Europe (and their followers here in America). connect same-sex marriage with the decline of traditional marriage.
Same-sex marriage doesn’t reinforce marriage; instead, it upends marriage, and helps build acceptance for a host of other mutually reinforcing changes (like single parenting, parental cohabitation, and multi-partner unions) that only serve to weaken marriage. In short, “the queering of the social” (meaning a broad spectrum of family change, including, but not limited to, same-sex partnerships) calls into question the normativity and naturalness of “heterorelationality” (i.e., traditional marriage).
Anthony Giddens, the most influential sociologist in Britain, and arguably all of Europe. Giddens’s 1992 book, The Transformation of Intimacy, with its famous notion of “the pure relationship,” is the text most frequently invoked by European demographers to explain trends like parental cohabitation and same-sex unions.
Director of the influential London School of Economics, Giddens has been famously dubbed Tony Blair’s “guru.” In 2000, for example, Giddens played a key role in convincing Blair to withdraw backing for a policy that would have supported marriage as “the best model” for British family life.
Giddens argues that “episodic gay sexuality of the bathhouse culture type” contains critical positive lessons for heterosexual relationships.While “marriage in the traditional sense” disappears, “it is the gays who are the pioneers.”
German sociologists Ulrich Beck and Elisabeth Beck-Gernsheim have captivated Europe’s intellectuals. (See especially their 2002 book, Individualization.)
ReplyDeleteWith their ideas of “zombie families,” the “post-familial family,” and the “normal chaos of love,”
Giddens stresses the need for an ”optional, negotiated monogamy” , rather than monogamy as an expected part of marriage, Beck and Beck-Gernsheim say that individual choice is hollowing out the institutions that used to guide our choices. Families may look traditional on the outside, but in fact they’re “post-familial families.” And for Beck and Beck-Gernsheim, it would be “reactionary” to try to “recuperate the old values of family.”
Beck-Gernsheim want the government to subsidize the new, “experimental” forms of family that emerge in the aftermath of the traditional family’s final collapse.
For Beck and Beck-Gernsheim, family dissolution teaches children a hard but necessary lesson about our new social world. Family breakup socializes children into “the normal chaos of love,” the instability that is an intrinsic part of life in the “post-familial family.” Some might call this a selfish rationalization of the profound costs to children of family breakup. Yet Beck and Beck-Gernsheim boldly tout the childhood experience of divorce as a kind of useful boot camp for post-modern adulthood.
Norwegian sociologist, Kari Moxnes, a follower of Giddens, is invoked by Scandinavian social scientists searching for a way to make sense of same-sex unions. Viewing marriage and at-home motherhood as intrinsically oppressive to women, Moxnes is a proponent of parental cohabitation. Moxnes welcomes same-sex marriage, not as a way of ratifying marriage itself, but as an innovation that affirms and advances marriage’s ongoing decline.
Sash Roseneil, the sociologist who argues that “the queering of the social” disrupts conventional “heterorelationality.” Like Moxnes, Roseneil’s views couldn’t be further from the “conservative case” for gay marriage. Roseneil believes that a host of family changes—from same-sex unions, to births to cohabiting parents, to mothers who are “single by choice,”—is collectively conspiring to “release” individuals from “heterorelationality” (i.e., traditional marriage). Roseneil draws on Giddens to make her points, while also linking her views to the prominent American family sociologist, Judith Stacey.
Judith Stacey, (formerly the Barbra Streisand Professor in Contemporary Gender Studies at USC) begins the chapter on same-sex unions in her 1996 book, In the Name of the Family. Stacey’s slogan neatly encapsulates her idea that gays are pioneering ways of living that will transform the family for everyone.
In Stacey’s view, lesbian motherhood via artificial insemination helps pave the way for intentional single motherhood among heterosexuals. Sexually open relationships among gay men can increase the acceptance of non-monogamy by heterosexuals, and the triple and quadruple unions between lesbians and gays created by donor insemination suggest the possibility of group marriage for society as a whole. True, Stacey is ambivalent about formal same-sex marriage. She worries that the effect will be too conservative, and so would prefer to abolish marriage outright. Failing that, however, Stacey is enthusiastic about using gay marriage as a device with which to undermine marriage from within.
ReplyDeleteLike Beck and Beck Gernsheim, Stacey sees the traditional family as something like the living dead. We are haunted by the ghost of the family, says Stacey. She suggests “a proper memorial service” to help us get over its death.
So there’s hardly a point about the power of same-sex unions to disrupt traditional marriage that Stacey herself hasn’t already made. The key difference between Stacey and conservative critics of same-sex marriage is that Stacey actually wants to undermine marriage. In short, the most influential European family sociologists, America’s radical academics, and American conservatives are surprisingly united in recognizing the potential of same-sex marriage to undermine marriage itself.
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=MTU4NDEzNTY5ODNmOWU4M2Y1MGIwMTcyODdjZGQxOTk=
Phil, you misrepresented the topic of the original blogpost.
ReplyDeleteThe topic is described in the title: "Licensing begins with marriage, not licenses."
It is not what to do about Phil's favored subset of nonmarriage? The topic is not justification for licensing nonmarriage and so on.
Such questions have been discussed at Opine. You can take a look through the categories in our archives to find and discuss those topics under those blogposts. Discussion is welcomed.
What is not welcomed is the phoney pose that to not discuss your off-topic stuff, here, is a test of character.
Here the topic is marriage, and justifying the boundaries around it based on what marriage actually is. If you want to move on to another topic, that's okay, but not here under this blogpost.
Thanks.
The following list is misleading:
ReplyDelete1. Marriage is not exclusively about breeding.
Responsible procreation, Phil. Try to keep that in mind instead of "breeding" and you might find yourself engaging the actual disagreement.
2. The core of marriage is commitment (to each other) between two consenting adults.
Commitment does not self-limit to two; and the protocols of consent depend on that to which consent is given.
The statement does not justify societal consent/ commitment.
3. A penis penetrating a vagina is just one of the elements of a marriage, and nowhere near the core of marriage.
Sex integration. Keep that in mind, Phil, and you just might get closer to facing the actual disagreement.
Phil: What makes a point legitimate op-ed?
ReplyDeleteYou need to have basics like that down before you get here, Phil.
Are “legitimate” points those that op-ed agrees with?
No, but for the purposes of this exercise, use your own best judgment in determining what points are legitimate.
1. Marriage is not exclusively about breeding.
Irrelevant and nonsensical. What would it mean to be "exclusively about" something? Whatever marriage is "exclusively about," we would not need it if not for the need for responsible procreation.
2. The core of marriage is commitment (to each other) between two consenting adults.
Prove it. Using the same standards by which you dismiss the link between responsible procreation and marriage, prove that commitment has anything at all to do with marriage.
This is not a point you have raised, this is an assertion you are trying to defend. Raising your ultimate conclusion as if it were a premise to your argument is circular. That may be sound Phil-logic, but it is illegitimate in actual logic.
Tell me, why do "two consenting adults" need government involvement in their relationship? In fact most relationships between consenting adults do not involve the government at all. Where government is needed to enforce agreements between "consenting adults" contract law is sufficient. Since we already have contract law for dealing with such arrangements, there is no reason to reduce marriage into yet-another-contract.
3. A p**** penetrating a v**** is just one of the elements of a marriage, and nowhere near the core of marriage.
This is crass for crassness's sake. You're like a three-year-old who just learned the name of a body part and now can't help himself blurting it out every chance he gets. Some semblance of decorum is not too much to ask of guests here. You are certainly not presenting those on your side of the debate in a favorable way.
Marriages may be annulled on the grounds they were never consummated. Relationships that are putatively not sexual, such as business partnerships or babysitter and child or babysitter and employer, even if they involve members of the opposite sex are not considered marriages. Like it or not, part of our biology is that normal reproduction involves sexual intercourse. Also part of our biology is that sexual intercourse results in reproduction whether we like it to or not - which is why we need marriage.
4. Since a question (a request for more information) does not state a truth, a question cannot be “vacuous” unless you know something, or make assumptions about, the reasons it was asked.
Already debunked. A question is vacuous if its answers would be. "Do hotels on the moon put mints on the pillows?" is a vacuous question because whether the answer is yes, no, or it depends, the answers are all correct. It does not matter "the reasons it was asked."
So, an irrelevant point, a circular point, an unnecessarily crass point, and an already discredited point. Are those your most shining examples of "legitimate?"
Phil: False. If you are aware of men in such numbers that there are "many," feel free to provide evidence of their existence.
ReplyDeleteFirst, tell me how "many" a minority must be before they have rights to be protected.
Then, just answer the question asked rather than squirming away from it. What should men do who want the "right" to fly by defining ground to be sky?
op-ed,
ReplyDeleteYour question was hypothetical, yet you presented it as if it were a real-life example.
Then, just answer the question asked rather than squirming away from it. What should men do who want the "right" to fly by defining ground to be sky?
Why does it matter that they are "men," op? They should have exactly the same rights as everyone else, without regard to their sex, gender, race, religion, social class, veteran status, etc., to determine what is sky and what is ground.
Perhaps you are confusing legal definitions with scientific definitions with definitions that are socially constructed.
some of the most influential sociologists in Europe (and their followers here in America). connect same-sex marriage with the decline of traditional marriage.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that these influential sociologists have proven a causal relationship between same-sex marriage and the "decline" of the traditional family? "Connected" is a vague term.
Chairm,
ReplyDeleteEither you are arguing semantics, or we are in agreement. If you believe that "responsible procreation" is distinct from breeding, then you agree with my first statement--we may differ on what marriage is about, but we apparently agree on what it is not about.
If "responsible procreation" is essentially the same thing as breeding, then you're just substituting different vocabulary for my phrasing.
the protocols of consent depend on that to which consent is given.
If the term "consent" is unclear, perhaps you could share some of the reasonable alternate interpretations that stem from my statement? It might be helpful to your point if these alternate interpretations that you seem to see don't apply to all possible marital situations.
Sex integration. Keep that in mind, Phil, and you just might get closer to facing the actual disagreement.
Again, are you saying that my statement is true, but irrelevant? Or are you just arguing semantics now?
Phil Thibedeaux (asks)
ReplyDelete"Are you saying that these influential sociologists have proven a causal relationship between same-sex marriage and the "decline" of the traditional family? "Connected" is a vague term."
When you talk about "proven" the question remains - "to who's satisfaction".
In order to "prove" something sociologically, you need firstrun the experiment and then collect all the data and then argue about it untill someone is satisfied about the causal connection.
Obviously this leaves considerable room for bad-faith actors to feign disagreement until there choosen social change is deeply rooted in the culture.
Thats why I brough up these multiple influential sociologists. Even though they are dedicated leftists and advocates of same-sex "marriage" they concure with the traditional family advocates that same-sex "marriage" both will & has led to the erosion of traditional family life in places it has been introduced.
When you have people on both ends of the ideological spectrum agreeing on something..you can be certain that these learned people are on to something.
Phil, your response doesn't merit further comment.
ReplyDeleteIn order to "prove" something sociologically, you need firstrun the experiment and then collect all the data and then argue about it untill someone is satisfied about the causal connection.
ReplyDeleteAre you suggesting that all sociological proof is constructed through debate? (I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just clarifying what you're saying here.)
Obviously this leaves considerable room for bad-faith actors to feign disagreement until there choosen social change is deeply rooted in the culture.
That is true--the process you described leaves room for anyone acting in bad faith. Would you agree that it also leaves room for bigots to pretend that their deeply held prejudices are supported by sociological research?
"Are you suggesting that all sociological proof is constructed through debate?"
ReplyDeleteWell I dont know what you mean by "constructed through" But I think my answer is yes.
This is sociology we are talking about...Its not a physical science were you can run control groups and have descrete petri dishes and so forth..
So yes, argument amoung people in the feild(s) is carried on for a number of years until a consensus emerges.
For instance: it took years for arguments about optimal family formation to be put to thorough examination. It ttok 40 years of studies for social scientists to come to the conclusion that traditional marriage was the best predictor of child outcomes on the standard mesure used for adolescent development.
(note: at this point scientists on both sides of the debate concede that not enough studies have been done on children of same-sex couples to come to solid conclusions)
However: other adequetly studied family form do exsist: including divorced homes, step-parent homes, single parent homes, blended families and the like.
Nevertheless:People including proffesionals still argue the widley accepted consensus.
The same can also be said of the arguments concerning divorce and child well-being. A social scientific concensus has emerged that says that divorce is generally harmfull to children on the standards of child well-being.
Unless the marriage is a "high-conflict" marriage children from divorced homes fare worse. High conflicit is said to mean VERY high levels of argueing and even abuse. However even a "loveless" marriage, and one with general anomosity is said to be better for child outcomes than divorce.
Interestingly enough, when no-fault divorce was being argued, one commonly heard arguments used by those favoring the change was:
"How do two people geeting divorced effect YOUR marriage?"
At that point the divorce rate was less than 10%..
That is why I find it so important that Critics from both the left & the right have basically the same view about what the long term effects of same-sex "marriage" will have on marriage.
Certainly there are exceptions...but most people involved in the debate believe that changing the definiton of marriage will weaken the insitution. Its only a question of weather thats considered a bad thing or a good thing.
Phil: Your question was hypothetical, yet you presented it as if it were a real-life example.
ReplyDeleteAnother non-answer. Answer the question, Phil. How "many" must a minority be before you believe it has rights?
Why does it matter that they are "men," op?
Assume it does not and answer the question. You're going to hurt yourself with all this squirming.
Perhaps you are confusing legal definitions with scientific definitions with definitions that are socially constructed.
And perhaps not. Now that we are done conjecturing, answer the question.
You're like a three-year-old who just learned the name of a body part and now can't help himself blurting it out every chance he gets.
ReplyDeleteAre the terms "penis" and "vagina" offensive, op-ed? Is there something dirty or bad about those body parts or their function, such that using clear, specific technical language about them violates some standard of decorum?
(Alas, I wrote a longer response, but blogspot ate it. But I wanted to get clarification here.)
As I said. A three year old.
ReplyDeleteAs I said. A three year old.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you, a hundred and twelve, op-ed? Were you raised in Victorian England? Explain what's "crass" about the human body, if you want, or stop acting like grown adults have to refrain from using clear, specific, technical language.
Phil-osophy...
ReplyDeleteExplain what's "crass" about the human body
These demands of yours are rather funny. Your treatment of the human body is crass, not the body itself.
Are the terms [...] offensive, op-ed?
The terms are not offensive, but your use of them is, and I think you realize that.
Is there something dirty or bad about those body parts or their function
You've not talked about function yet, Phil. Your reference to the terms is simply use, or how-to manual. There is a difference. I would appreciate you discussing the function, even.
Realize we've deleted posts even from editors at times that focused on use more then function. A good rule of thumb is that technique is a 'use', but the result one is shooting for is what denotes function.
Phil-osophy:
ReplyDeleteIf you believe that "responsible procreation" is distinct from breeding,
Another of your narrow minded pigeon holes, if you ask me.
Your original statement was, "Marriage is not exclusively about breeding." It fails on two accounts, exclusivity is not the suggested link (it is actually marriage neuterist misinformation which deals in such terms), and breeding is distinct from responsible procreation.
Example: 2 is a distinct number. It is an even number. Yet, it is distinct from the set of even numbers. (Distinct does not mean apart from, just unique or distinguishable).
The distinction between breeding and responsible procreation is the same. Responsible procreation is a subset of breeding -- and that is the point. Marriage is to encourage breeding to happen in the conditions that reasonably look like the couple has assumed life-long responsibility to take care of the child's needs (which lessen over time but do not all together go away as the child reaches adulthood).
That doesn't happen if marriage no longer explicitly makes a distinction for the reproductive pair. I mean, look at you, you get confused because we make an exception for the disabled. Imagine what a horrible place this would be if people really took you at your word for what marriage is about.
More Phil-osophy,
ReplyDeleteIf the term "consent" is unclear
Actually, it clearly states that Chairm feels the terms over what is the consent is drawn over is unclear.
Try again, Phil. This time try reading before jumping to conclusions :)
Again, are you saying that my statement is true, but irrelevant?
ReplyDeleteHe's saying you clearly don't understand the debate. That is both relevant and true :)
It fails on two accounts
ReplyDeleteLogic is a stranger to you, On Lawn. You write that the statement "fails," and then you explain how, because you take issue with the terminology used in the statement, it is absolutely true.
We all seem to agree that marriage is not exclusively about breeding. If you and the home team never claimed anything of the sort, well, fine. Then you didn't say it was. Even so, if you say I'm wrong when I said it, then you're arguing that marriage is exclusively about breeding. Obviously, you don't believe that.
So we agree with the statement, for different reasons. Can you see how the term "partisan hack" might be appropriate here? Instead of evaluating the statement I made, you write that it fails, and then illustrate how fervently you believe it's true. It's as if you're trying to tell me I'm wrong, because marriage really really isn't about breeding.
Imagine what a horrible place this would be if people really took you at your word for what marriage is about.
The world would be a horrible place if people really took to heart the notion that marriage requires commitment to your spouse? Is that what you're saying? Do you really believe that?
Phil Thibedeaux I hope your converastion with the others has not distracted you from ours. I know you have alot of balls up in the air but we were making headway..
ReplyDeletePhil: Logic is a stranger to you, On Lawn.
ReplyDeletePhil-logic is, anyway. Nothing Phil yammers on about in the entire comment suggests anything about On Lawn's familiarity with logic.
We all seem to agree that marriage is not exclusively about breeding.
Unclear. Among the many, many questions Phil cannot answer is what "exclusively about" even means or how it is relevant to the discussion. Are dams "exclusively about" holding back water? If not, then why are they only used where water is or may be? Why don't we build buildings out of dams instead of walls? People celebrate the opening of a new dam but rarely the building of a new wall. Making buildings out of dams would at least be cause for more celebrating. Who opposes celebration?
Can you see how the term "partisan hack" might be appropriate here?
Phil thinks we need another example that he is a "partisan hack?" As if the fact he can't declare an argument bad that depends on not being able to distinguish men from women wasn't example enough.
The world would be a horrible place if people really took to heart the notion that marriage requires commitment to your spouse?
Whatever Phil's motivation for doing so now, he is pretending his only claim all along about marriage is that it "requires commitment." While this is a deliberately false pose on Phil's part it at least reveals what he truly thinks about his other claims that he is so willing to drop them.
You write that the statement "fails," and then you explain how, because you take issue with the terminology used in the statement, it is absolutely true.
ReplyDeleteNo, the statement is not true. It is entertaining to watch you try the same tactic which lead to you being discredited before in the discussion of Weir, where you tried to implicate your own meaningless designs on what it means to be gay by instead discussing if Weir exists as a person or not.
So lets review how you are doing it here also.
I'll sum up what you [Chairm] said: Marriage is a license to breed.
Did you, or did you not say that? In fact that was the first time you mentioned "breed" in this statement. When Op-Ed asked if you made a legitimate point here, that was the point you made.
That context of it as a statement of what another's argument is, and that is clear from your usage. On that regard it fails. And your subsequent attempts to continue to prop that strawman up as representational to anything in this discussion is showing either inflexibility to understand another's position, or a dishonest unwillingness to present it fairly.
The world would be a horrible place if people really took to heart the notion that marriage requires commitment to your spouse? Is that what you're saying? Do you really believe that?
ReplyDeleteMarriage (the institution of equality in how people procreate) requires commitment to your spouse (the person you combine with to create children)? Of course it does.
And if that is what you are saying, then you are right. But if you aren't then what a sad world this would be...
That context of it as a statement of what another's argument is, and that is clear from your usage.
ReplyDeleteSo, according to your analysis, because Chairm doesn't believe, and did not say, that marriage is a license to breed, therefore the statement that "marriage is not exclusively about breeding" is false?
Wouldn't it make more sense to say that Chairm's perceived disagreement helps support the notion that the statement is true.
Marriage (the institution of equality in how people procreate) requires commitment to your spouse (the person you combine with to create children)?
If your spouse is defined as the person you combine with to create children, then, in your opinion, is divorce legitimate if you learn that your spouse cannot create children?
So, according to your analysis, because Chairm doesn't believe, and did not say, that marriage is a license to breed
ReplyDeleteAdmit it, its true :)
If your spouse is defined as the person you combine with to create children
Correction, the spouse should be the person you combine to create children with. And that "should" is what marriage is meant to provide for :)
Fitz,
ReplyDeleteThe articles you linked to indicate that neither Eskridge nor Spedale believe there's a causal link between same-sex marriage and the shift in family forms that they predict. Did you read that part?
Correction, the spouse should be the person you combine to create children with. And that "should" is what marriage is meant to provide for :)
ReplyDeleteSo, if a man marries a woman, thinking she's fertile, and learns after a few years that she will never be able to bear his children, is divorce legitimate for that couple?
I admire that you find that aspect of our conversation interesting. So do I. But lets not get ahead of ourselves, Phil. I believe you admit that I'm right, because Chairm doesn't believe, and did not say, that marriage is a license to breed.
ReplyDeleteIts absolutely true, just admit it :)
On Lawn,
ReplyDeleteOh, I absolutely agree with the statement that Chairm doesn't believe that marriage is a license to breed. And although my intepretation is that that's what his arguments boil down to, you are completely right that he never said that's the case.
This, of course, is metadiscourse: we're discussing the discussion.
[...] Chairm doesn't believe that marriage is a license to breed. And although my intepretation is that that's what his arguments boil down to, you are completely right that he never said that's the case.
ReplyDeleteAh, the old 'fake but accurate' routine. When you've reduced his argument to your own simplicity / convenience, you've missed the point. Do you realize that you then are attacking the very problem you interjected into his argument?
In other words, it doesn't matter what arguments you think you are shooting down. You won't hit the target until you understand what is actual argument is.
In other words, it doesn't matter what arguments you think you are shooting down. You won't hit the target until you understand what is actual argument is.
ReplyDeleteOn Lawn,
That's fair to say. Similarly, I do not advocate "neutering marriage;" I advocate eliminating sex and gender discrimination in marriage law such that adult human beings have the freedom to marry without being subjected to unjustified institutionalized bigotry and prejudice.
So, someone who uses a term like "neutering marriage" is clearly incapable of "hitting the target" when it comes to my actual arguments.
Hey, that is easy enough...
ReplyDeleteDo you support removing the expectation of each gender in each marriage?
Phil Thibedeaux (asks)
ReplyDelete"The articles you linked to indicate that neither Eskridge nor Spedale believe there's a causal link between same-sex marriage and the shift in family forms that they predict. Did you read that part?
Yes: obviously I read the article I posted & linked to.
Eskridge & Spedale are a discreet camp known in marriage circles as the "conservative argument" for same -sex "marriage".
Your welcome to hang your hat with them if you like, but I brought up the article to find out what you thought about the arguments of the wider circle of gay "marriage" advocates like Ulrich Beck, Melanie Jacobs ,Elisabeth Gernsheim, Kari MoxnesK, Mae Kuykendall, Sash Roseneil, Judith Stacey, Martha Ackelsberg, Manolo Guzman, Anthony Giddens & the like.
This wider & more influential segment of proponents of same-sex marriage want to De-privilege the Privileged (traditional marriage), And privilege the de-Privileged (anything but traditional marriage)
I was wondering what you thought of their reasoning & the arguments they employed.
Going back to one of Phil's points from 3/16:
ReplyDelete2. The core of marriage is commitment (to each other) between two consenting adults.
Phil, I'm going to hold you to the same kind of scrutiny in defending that "core" as you do with us.
Could you please give a definition of "commitment" that is meaningful in regard to marriage; that is, how the commitment sought in marriage is distinct, or for that matter of a different type than other commitments outside of marriage? That is, a definition central to marriage such that every marriage ought to have that quality. And one that is legally meaningful as well.
And, if you can provide such a definition, while it need not be something which is not possible outside of marriage, when it is possible for combinations not allowed to marry the refusal to extend marriage to those combinations has to be defensible on the grounds that there are reasons related to that "core" and no other, that is, why they should not commit in that way.
And no, I'm not letting you get away with the "I don't logically have to...." argument. That is merely a way of trying to have your cake and eat it too. You can't just run away from it when the same type of logic you try to apply to us is applied to you as well.
Phil: Chairm doesn't believe that marriage is a license to breed. And although my intepretation is that that's what his arguments boil down to...
ReplyDeleteInterpreting one's opponent's argument to mean something one knows the opponent doesn't believe is what real logic calls a straw man. Phil-logic accepts straw man arguments, but Phil-logic is completely unrelated to actual logic.
Want to see how bad Phil-logic is? Just ask Phil to produce a Phil-logical argument that starts with a list of Chairm quotes as precedents and ends with the Phil-logical conclusion that "marriage is a license to breed." Then sit back and watch the fallacies fly, assuming Phil even attempts a response, that is. Phil has left the vast majority of questions in this thread unanswered.
R.K.: Phil, I'm going to hold you to the same kind of scrutiny in defending that "core" as you do with us.
ReplyDeleteThis is already on the pile of questions Phil cannot answer. I said originally:
"Using the same standards by which you dismiss the link between responsible procreation and marriage, prove that commitment has anything at all to do with marriage."
And no, I'm not letting you get away with the "I don't logically have to...." argument.
But that's just it. In Phil-logic there is no requirement that an analysis be generally applicable. If it drives to the conclusion he wants in a particular case, then by Phil-logic it is valid in that case. If it drives to a conclusion he doesn't want in a different case, then it is invalid in that different case but still valid in the original case. Phil-logic is truly a spectacle.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThe sexual basis of anything will always involve sexual organs doing their function.
ReplyDeleteYour statement is always true, for marriage or anything else :)
Now, your turn.
op-ed:
ReplyDelete"Using the same standards by which you dismiss the link between responsible procreation and marriage, prove that commitment has anything at all to do with marriage."
In order for a marriage to be legal, both participants must declare in front of witnesses and a representative of the state that, at the very least, they take each other to be their lawfully wedded spouse.
I've never been to a wedding ceremony that didn't include additional language about committing to the other person (in fact, ever wedding ceremony I've ever attended has included the phrase "'Til death do us part."
Further, while some married couples are physically incapable of procreating, no married couples are physically incapable of committing to each other.
Are you genuinely arguing against the concept that marriage involves commitment? How on earth can you support your claim that marriage is a better situation for responsible procreation if you refute the notion that marriage involves commitment?
Do you support removing the expectation of each gender in each marriage?
ReplyDeleteI support removing gender and sex discrimination in marriage law, so if you're asking whether I support removing the legal requirement that two different genders be present in each marriage, the answer is yes.
The term "neuter" still isn't appropriate, unless you also maintain that an all-boy's school or an all-women's gym is also "neutered."
It is appropriate since removing the requirement is neutralizing the core meaning of marriage.
ReplyDeleteYour analogy is very weak. A facility that is one-sexed is not sex-neutral; it is sex-exclusive. Marriage is no sex-neutral but is sex-integrative. Both sexes, together, is a requirement that is not some arbitrary rule pressed onto marriage. It is the basis upon which marriage, as a social institution, merits special status in civilization.
Do you object to that basis? Yes.
Do you object to the special status of marriage if the law be rendered sex-neutral?
You have not said so, one way or the other, but you have indicated that you agree that society may justly discriminate between marriage and other stuff. That agreement recognizes that the marriage category coexists with the nonmarriage category. Hence the discussion of boundaries and of the core around which boundaries are drawn, justly.
The SSM idea provides no justification for drawing lines of eligibility and ineligiblity. Sure, advocates of the SSM idea would borrow lines that are not sex-neutral, but that boilsdown to mere assertion rather than justification.
RK has pointed this out to you; as has Op-ed; as has Renee; as have I in the original blogpost.
Exhibit A:
ReplyDeletePhil: "No facet of actual reproduction matters one whit when we're talking about mixed-sex couples."
See the part in my blogpost, "A Sexual Type of Relationship."
And, "SSM Licensing Cares Not One Whit About Sex."
Exhibit B:
ReplyDeletePhil: "I absolutely agree with the statement that Chairm doesn't believe that marriage is a license to breed. And although my intepretation is that that's what his arguments boil down to...
Op-ed: "Interpreting one's opponent's argument to mean something one knows the opponent doesn't believe is what real logic calls a straw man."
Exhibit C:
Phil: "I would argue that the core of marriage is commitment, although marriage entails many other things."
Chairm: "Commitment features in a wide range of relationship types outside of marriage. Commitment, and consent, count as nothing unless you can identify that to which commitment and consent is given. And even at that, neither commitment nor consent is a trump card for eligiblity to marry. Nor for eligiblity for most other stuff, besides. Your latest comment has confirmed the conclusion of my blogpost."
Also see the conclusion of my blogpost, Drawing Unjustified Lines Around SSM.
Exhibit D:
ReplyDeletePhil: "In order for a marriage to be legal, both participants must declare in front of witnesses and a representative of the state that, at the very least, they take each other to be their lawfully wedded spouse."
Chairm: "Backup to before society pins the label 'marriage' on this particular type of relationship. Before a special status is assigned to it. Before a special status is even considered necessary for society's recognition of the essentials of this type of stuff."
Exhibit E:
ReplyDeletePhil: "Further, while some married couples are physically incapable of procreating, no married couples are physically incapable of committing to each other."
Committing to each other is not a trump card nor does it self-limit to the number two. The license, and the special status, comprise societal commitment to the type of thing being licensed.
(Commitment to each other, in terms of marriage, is not narrowly a commitment of this or that particular individual to other individual(s); it entails societal commitment to each other -- across society and across generations.)
Society licenses stuff to which a lone individual may be capable of comitting. Or a group of two or more individuals. Societal commitment counts very much: and that depends on societal regard for the type of thing being licensed.
The notion of 'physically capable of committing' suggests physical criteria that test for incapability of committing. What might these be?
Well, people are born related so that might count. And there are age requirements that use chronlogical age as proxy for other stuff, such as sexual maturity (physical) and mental maturity (physical) and social independence (physical). Also, there is the natural limit of two -- one man and one woman -- which arises from the physiology of humankind and from the nature of human procreation and from the innate social nature of human community. All physicalities that might count.
But this notion of being 'physical capability to commit' will be contingent on the type of thing being licensed and accorded special status by society.
Exhibit F:
ReplyDeletePhil: "Are you genuinely arguing against the concept that marriage involves commitment? How on earth can you support your claim that marriage is a better situation for responsible procreation if you refute the notion that marriage involves commitment?"
See the part in my blogpost, "Society Responds to the Core of the Social Institution."
Also, "What is SSM supposed to license?"
Keep in mind, Responsible Procreation, as the touchstone for the paramters of commitment and consent. Likewise, Sex Integration. And, as a combination, these give coherence to that which society and individuals commit and consent when they enter the social institution of marriage.
To reiterate: "Commitment does not self-limit to two; and the protocols of consent depend on that to which consent is given. The statement does not justify societal consent/ commitment."
Responsible procreation and sex integration (at minimum) as a combination is that to which society commits and consents through the special status accorded the social instituition of marriage. Marriage is first and foremost a social institution of civil society -- it is not the creation nor the servant of the government. Its core meaning, that combination, is what provides the institution its coherency. This is the special reason for the special status of marriage in our civilization.
Boundaries of eligiblity are drawn around this core meaning of marriage and are justified by the societal concerns regarding that core meaning. These are not arbitrary boundaries even if they vary from one society's respone to that core meaning to another society's response.
Personal motivations do not comprise a trump card. A brother and sister do not wave the rules -- nor the societal concerns -- by declaring their commitment to each other whether or not that commitment is sexualized. Society recognizes first a type of relationship and subsequenty it applies its rules of eligiblity on a case-by-case basis. Marriage is not first a personally-defined relationship which is eligible for special status on its own; it is eligible when the couple enters the social institution around which society applies just boundaries.
Commitment does not transform ineligiblity into eligibility for a wide range of two-sexed combinations. Commitment is contingent upon the core meaning of marriage; commitment cannot therefore be the core meaning of marriage.
RK and Op-ed have reminded Phil that his assertions about commitment/ consent are subject to the same standards of argumentation with which he has attacked the status quo.
ReplyDeletePatiently On Lawn has been walking side-byside with Phil through the process of testing his assertions.
Phil begins with licensing. And that is why he has mistakenly tried to relocate the core of marriage to its parameter - to the protocols of consent. The protocols can be defended far beyond the application to marriage. The question is not about that but about justifying boundaries around marriage -- or in Phil's case around the SSM idea -- such that the core of the thing being recognized may justly apply a test of commitment/ consent.
I think that is what Renee's remarks above were getting at. And those of Fitz, RK, Op-ed, and On lawn. Phil's remarks, on the other hand, not so much.
Phil: I support removing gender and sex discrimination in marriage law...
ReplyDeleteThe problem is none of your sophistry removes "gender and sex discrimination" from procreation itself, so you are simply arguing to unlink marriage and procreation.
The term "neuter" still isn't appropriate, unless you also maintain that an all-boy's school or an all-women's gym is also "neutered."
How is an "all-boy's school or an all-women's gym" gender non-specific?
Phil: In order for a marriage to be legal, both participants must declare in front of witnesses and a representative of the state that...
ReplyDeleteAnd many of those "participants" are declaring before a judge less than a year later that they no longer take each other as spouse. That's no commitment, Phil. By your own standard, if the commitment is not forced, it must not be core. If marriages exist without it, then it cannot be the core of marriage. The state does not force commitment, therefore it cannot be the "core."
I've never been to a wedding ceremony that didn't include additional language...
What happens in your religious services doesn't control the state. You're just admitting here that commitment isn't in the law at all. By your standard, if it is not mentioned in the law, it must not be the core.
Further, while some married couples are physically incapable of procreating, no married couples are physically incapable of committing to each other.
Prove it. What difference does it make anyway whether a lack of commitment is traced to a physical handicap or not?
Are you genuinely arguing against the concept that marriage involves commitment?
Of course not. I'm arguing against Phil-logic. You invented the standard of proof here, I'm just showing that it contradicts your own position. Contradiction is a standard technique for debunking bad logic, Phil-logic in this case. If you're having trouble keeping up with that you're the only one who is.
op-ed:
ReplyDelete"Interpreting one's opponent's argument to mean something one knows the opponent doesn't believe is what real logic calls a straw man."
No, there are several other possibilities. It's possible, for example, that the original arguer doesn't really understand what they're saying. It's also possible that he/she would object to the interpretation not because it's inaccurate but because it's unsavory for other reasons.
For example, if your wife came to you and said, "I want us to have an open relationship" and you responded, "You're saying that you want to have sex with anyone you want to!!!"--she might disagree with your interpretation, even though it's not an unreasonable interpretation.
By your own standard, if the commitment is not forced, it must not be core. If marriages exist without it, then it cannot be the core of marriage. The state does not force commitment, therefore it cannot be the "core."
ReplyDeleteThat's not my standard, op. I never argued for force. We do not force couples to have children, yet you claim that is the core of marriage. We cannot force couples to be committed, yet I claim that is the core of marriage.
The difference is that some couples cannot have children, while all couples are capable of commitment.
I'm not arguing that commitment "should be" the core of marriage (though it's possible that's the case.) I'm arguing that it is the core of marriage, and has been for the modern era.
The evidence of this is everywhere. No one expects a mixed-sex couple who is incapable of procreation to refrain from marrying for their entire lives. That's because commitment is more important than even procreation. That's why the commitment comes first.
You don't argue that couples should have a child, then get married. You argue that they should get married before they have children.
You're just admitting here that commitment isn't in the law at all.
If you want to argue the opposite of what I'm saying, that commitment is irrelevant to marriage, by all means, try to make that argument, op-ed.
But you can't make that argument because it eviscerates everything that you've said about marriage. You are discrediting yourself here because it excites you so much to disagree with me--even when I'm being perfectly reasonable.
Prove it.
In a debate, neither side has to prove anything that both sides agree on.
I don't have to prove anything unless you first make the claim that commitment is not crucial to marriage. Make that claim, op-ed, and I'll respond accordingly.
But don't pretend I have some logical obligation to justify a claim that you also believe.
Of course not. I'm arguing against Phil-logic.
And here's where you show your true colors. It doesn't matter that I'm right; you're arguing with what I said because I said it. For some reason, you refuse to agree with me even when you believe what I'm saying.
I'm not a psychiatrist, but it does seem that feel you have "classified" me, and now that you've decided I'm inferior to you, you feel that you would lose points, somehow, if you identified areas of agreement.
Perhaps this tendency is why it's so easy for you to argue from the standpoint that same-sex couples are inferior to mixed-sex couples.
But don't pretend I have some logical obligation to justify a claim that you also believe.
ReplyDeleteYes, Phil, you really do. Because if you advocate that a line be erased, the public has every reason to ask what the new line is going to be. If you or those of your position draw a new line, the public has every reason to suspect that someone else can now just as easily, and with arguments just as good as those you used, erase the line you drew and put it even further out yet. Or just not draw a line at all. And if you say "I'm not advocating drawing a line", the public has every reason to ask just who will and where it will be. You are the one advocating a change to a public institution, whether you think it is a major one or not. Hence, you have an obligation to the public to answer these questions. You have the legal right not to, of course. But it looks very much like running away from something that you started.
Phil's response begs a double standard. Note:
ReplyDeleteIn order for a marriage to be legal, both participants must declare in front of witnesses and a representative of the state that, at the very least, they take each other to be their lawfully wedded spouse.
One's gender or sex is a public declaration, just like "commitment" in his requirement. It is legally recorded, even.
Yet, when pressed for the purpose of marriage as responsible procreation, he demanded proof beyond that public declaration of fertility.
Yet, this commitment which is much more fleeting then gender, is not scrutinized or even legally documented.
I think commitment is important, but is not a requirement. Instead it is the very quality being fostered in marriage, for the sake of the children who look to each parent who gave them life with a unique perspective and bond. However, it is not legally proven as is gender -- which gives the reasonable expectation for the government of the attempt at responsible procreation.
Phil : > It's possible, for example, that the original arguer doesn't really understand what they're saying.
ReplyDeleteActually, all you've shown is that you do not really understand what they're saying. Hence your attempt was a straw man. And since you know it isn't what they are saying (you admitted it above) it was a dishonest attempt.
Phil : > The difference is that some couples cannot have children, while all couples are capable of commitment.
ReplyDeletePhil, do you acknowledge the existence of same-sex couples who are committed to each other and the dependents they raise together, that are not gay or even sexual to any degree?
Do you think their commitment is any less worthy then the commitment between two gays?
commitment is not crucial to marriage
ReplyDeleteCrucial does not mean "core", however. Commitment, as Op-Ed noted, is required in many arrangements. From baseball teams to employers and employees. However it is in all cases -- including marriage-- it is not the "core" but rather the quality which is being fostered to meet the purpose of the original arrangement.
An analogy.
You can say that it is crucial for ice-cream to be frozen. However, the purpose and core of ice-cream is as a desert with unique properties. Milk is required to call something Ice Cream, but then again milk isn't the "core" either as frozen milk is definitely not ice cream.
You can take any quality of ice cream and claim it is crucial or not. Some ice cream is actually not frozen, but freeze-dried to retain its shape and some of its texture when at room temperature. Some items made with soy have more of the divisible qualities then astronaut ice cream, providing for a plethora of contradictory examples.
But the core remains the purpose, and it is a collection of many things which add up to an expected product (and sometimes with noted and understood exceptions).
Phil: "I would argue that the core of marriage is commitment, although marriage entails many other things."
ReplyDeletePhil "We do not force couples to have children, yet you claim that is the core of marriage. We cannot force couples to be committed, yet I claim that is the core of marriage. The difference is that some couples cannot have children, while all couples are capable of commitment."
Please note the switch from physically capable of commiment to "capable of commitment". The physicality has been dropped.
Capable of commitment to what?
No matter, even if Phil could clearly say what he means by, capable of commitment, commitment is not a trump card that over-rides ineligiblity for just about anything in the law -- least of all marriage.
When people enter marriage they consent to all that marriage entails, including the sexual basis for the marital presumption of paternity. Society, through the special status accorded the social institution, commits to vigorously enforce that presumption. The solidarity of fatherhood and motherhood is the default because this is marriage rather than some other thing.
Phil is describing what he would prefer to see in the law. And that's not marriage. He has yet to say what are the essentials of the thing to which he'd attach this label, marriage, and accord special status.
In fact, he has yet to say if he supports or opposes the special status of marriage in our society.
Special status requires special reason. Commitment is insufficient; he still needs to say that two which commitment is required.
However, he has made another switch and no longer is looking for a legal requirement but would rather defer to a nice-to-have option that just sort of happens.
As I said in the title of my blogpost, referring to the essay of Scruton, the social institution of marriage shapes the motive for joining it. Phil is stuck on a vague desire that some people join something he has yet to differentiate from other stuff.
Circles and circles, he is lost in circles.
Typo correction: "that to which commitment is required."
ReplyDeletePhil: It's possible, for example, that the original arguer doesn't really understand what they're saying.
ReplyDeleteYou are not arguing that your misinterpretation is a consequence of Chairm's reasoning. You are simply attributing by assertion a belief to Chairm that you admit you already know he does not hold. That is a straw man argument and one you freely admit undertaking dishonestly.
We do not force couples to have children, yet you claim that is the core of marriage.
Yet according to you that disproves responsible procreation as the core of marriage. When the same problem arises with your own definition of the core of marriage, you argue against your own requirement. That's called a contradiction, and it is another form of refutation in real logic. Thanks for playing, there's some lovely parting gifts for you backstage.
The difference is that some couples cannot have children, while all couples are capable of commitment.
Prove "all couples are capable of commitment." There are plenty of couples that demonstrate they are "incapable of commitment." Whether that incapacity is due to nature or nurture is irrelevant. It is their "orientation" that dictates.
No one expects a mixed-sex couple who is incapable of procreation to refrain from marrying...
Yes, we do. When the couple "is incapable of procreation" because their relationship is putatively non-sexual and therefore cannot result in children. I already discredited this assertion and gave examples including that of a babysitter-employer relationship. There is no expectation, let alone requirement, that babysitters marry their employers before they begin their employ even if the two are male and female. Repeating assertions that have been discredited further demonstrates your dishonesty.
In a debate, neither side has to prove anything that both sides agree on.
False. Often in debate one side is required to show how their line of reasoning in one situation applies in a different situation. Often, as in this case, that refutes the line of reasoning in question.
...you're arguing with what I said because I said it.
False. I am using what you have said to show it results in a contradiction with the line of reasoning you have used elsewhere.
I'm not a psychiatrist, but it does seem that [you] feel you have "classified" me...
"Seem that [you] feel" is just a weasel phrase use to impute something that in fact never was demonstrated. The rest of Phil's comment is dedicated to his straw man and warrants not further response from me.
op-ed:
ReplyDeleteYes, we do. When the couple "is incapable of procreation" because their relationship is putatively non-sexual and therefore cannot result in children.
Right, because I was clearly talking about couples who don't want to get married when I said no one expects mixed-sex couples who are incapable of procreation to refrain from marrying.
Are you so desperate, op-ed, that you try to find these bizarre loopholes in a pretty clearly worded statement, or is that just your personality?
op-ed:
I already discredited this assertion and gave examples including that of a babysitter-employer relationship.
Op, that's silly. Babysitters are allowed to marry their employers, and vice versa. There might be a sexual harassment issue if an employer begins a sexual relationship with an employee, but your example doesn't hold. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Chairm:
Please note the switch from physically capable of commiment to "capable of commitment". The physicality has been dropped.
And that matters...why? "Physically capable of commitment" is only a lower bar if you maintain that there are couples out there who are physically incapable of commitment. Do you?
op:
There are plenty of couples that demonstrate they are "incapable of commitment."
Are there? These couples of which you speak, do any of them consist of adults of two sexes? If so, then you have been arguing pretty forcefully for their right to marry.
Do you believe that these couples who are incapable of commitment ought to get married, op-ed? Do you think that's a good idea?
Op:
Yet according to you that disproves responsible procreation as the core of marriage.
"Disproves?" Is that what you think? So do you have anything that "proves" responsible procreation is the core of marriage?
False. Often in debate one side is required to show how their line of reasoning in one situation applies in a different situation.
Is that the same thing as "proving something that both sides agree on?"
Crucial does not mean "core", however.
ReplyDeleteThat's correct. The debate about what is the "core" of marriage currently involves both sides weighing two functions which we all agree are important.
If, in zealously defending "responsible procreation," you trash-talk "commitment," then you discredit yourself, unless you mean to maintain that commitment doesn't matter at all to responsible procreation.
Physicality mattered when you introduced it as a meaningful qualifier of commitment. Don't ask me why it matters, at all, but please explain why it mattered to you then but not now.
ReplyDeleteOn Lawn:
ReplyDeleteYet, when pressed for the purpose of marriage as responsible procreation, he demanded proof beyond that public declaration of fertility.
Are you claiming that the state of being the opposite sex as your partner is a "public declaration of fertility?"
On Lawn:
Phil, do you acknowledge the existence of same-sex couples who are committed to each other and the dependents they raise together, that are not gay or even sexual to any degree?
If you want to acknowledge that the commitment you feel toward your wife is exactly the same as the commitment that the two dudes on the 1980s sitcom "My Two Dads" felt toward each other, then I can concede that such couples exist.
Otherwise, I say you're just taking advantage of the fact that "commitment" is effectively a homograph.
R.K.
You are the one advocating a change to a public institution, whether you think it is a major one or not.
Do you believe that the groups in Massachusetts who advocate banning same-sex marriage have to justify why they don't advocate polygamy, child brides, etc?
R.K., I argue by first identifying areas of agreement and then focusing on the areas of disagreement. If you want to make the claim that commitment is unimportant to marriage--or that there are couples who are physically incapable of marriage--that might merit a response.
But don't clap your hands and tell me to dance because it amuses you to see someone supporting a claim that you already believe is true. If we both agree on something, we have exactly the same burden to support it.
Chairm:
ReplyDeletePhysicality mattered when you introduced it as a meaningful qualifier of commitment. Don't ask me why it matters, at all, but please explain why it mattered to you then but not now.
Chairm, you are right. I shouldn't have shifted the ground like that. Feel free to hold me to my claim that there are no couples physically incapable of commitment.
Previously, Phil, it was you who maintained that "no married couples are physically incapable of committing to each other".
ReplyDeletePlease restate your assertion so that it can is clearly falsifiable. Thanks.
* * *
Also note, for the sake of consistency at least, that the blogpost we are discussing is about the thing being licensed; and you have been emphasizing the protocols of the license.
Instead of referring to already "married" people it would be more appropriate to refer to people eligible to marry. The license process involves an application to marry and you have been making much of qualification for a successful application.
That license is an agreement to form a type of relationship. Subsequently, people enter into the social institution. The parties agree -- the bride, groom, and the government authority who stands in place of society. The commitment is not just between the applicants. It is not merely a private type of arrangement. Not in the particular instance of this or that person, nor in the general sense of a social and legal status contingent upon societal participation.
Phil, why does physical capability matter to your viewpoint?
ReplyDeletePlease restate your assertion so that it can is clearly falsifiable. Thanks.
ReplyDelete"No couples are physically incapable of commitment."
If you're saying that's not falsifiable, then you're agreeing that it's true. We can move on.
Instead of referring to already "married" people it would be more appropriate to refer to people eligible to marry.
If you're saying that there are couples eligible to marry who are physically incapable of commitment, then I'll argue that point.
That license is an agreement to form a type of relationship.
Not exactly. The license denotes legal permission to form a type of relationship. Those who seek marriage licenses are not agreeing to marry.
Phil, why does physical capability matter to your viewpoint?
ReplyDeleteIt was to make a more clear and direct analogy. There are couples who are physically incapable of "responsible procreation," but there are no couples who are physically incapable of commitment to each other.
Phil, the typical state marriage amendment affirms the line against polygamy and child marriage.
ReplyDeleteOne man and one woman. No polygamy and no child marriage. This is affirmation of the status quo. In Massachusetts it would be affirmation of the longstanding status quo ante as per California.
The SSM idea is about changing the boundaries. Redrawing the lines is intrinsic to the argumentation of the pro-SSM advocates, yourself included.
The applicants are agreeing to marry, implicitly. And society has protocols by which societal agreement is sought and given or withheld.
ReplyDeleteBut it begins with the type of relationship, not the licensing protocols.
* * *
Your assertion about physical capability is unclear. Please plainly state what physical capablity might be so that its presence or its absence might be detected.
Phil: Do you believe that the groups in Massachusetts who advocate banning same-sex marriage have to justify why they don't advocate polygamy, child brides, etc?
ReplyDeleteThey are the ones who wanted the line to stay where it was, Phil. You do not. This is another of these responses where I would just ask people to go back to my post and judge for themselves whether or not you are actually dealing with it by your response here.
If you want to make the claim that commitment is unimportant to marriage--or that there are couples who are physically incapable of marriage [I think you meant "commitment" here)
Again, Phil:
Could you please give a definition of "commitment" that is meaningful in regard to marriage; that is, how the commitment sought in marriage is distinct, or for that matter of a different type than other commitments outside of marriage? That is, a definition central to marriage such that every marriage ought to have that quality. And one that is legally meaningful as well.
And, if you can provide such a definition, while it need not be something which is not possible outside of marriage, when it is possible for combinations not allowed to marry the refusal to extend marriage to those combinations has to be defensible on the grounds that there are reasons related to that "core" and no other, that is, why they should not commit in that way.
You may or may not have a "line", Phil, but you can't blame the public for asking if you do, or for asking you how you expect that line to hold.
If, in zealously defending "responsible procreation," you trash-talk "commitment,"
ReplyDeleteTrash talk is in the eye of the beholder, but as for myself I've not seen anyone do any such thing.
But, your fallacy is simply putting the cart before the horse. And once again it is an unverifiable cart before the scientifically observable horse.
Commitment is what is fostered by the recognition of marriage, because it cannot be verified and it is so fleeting. And, it is only there to meet the original purpose.
I noticed you didn't reply to those points, so I have no problem bringing that up again :)
Are you claiming that the state of being the opposite sex as your partner is a "public declaration of fertility?"
ReplyDeleteA public and legally recorded declaration ... of being the kind of relationship which is fertile.
[...] I can concede that such couples exist.
I always think it is funny how you over-constrain very simple points. Only if one example from a sitcom matches, can you say that such examples exist?
Do you really want to show yourself as so narrow minded?
Seriously, do you concede such couples exist or not?
Otherwise, I say you're just taking advantage of the fact that "commitment" is effectively a homograph.
Funny :)
Commitment isn't a homograph, or homonym (as you called them before).
But, as someone who's argument has relied on marriage as a homograph (or as I call it, an amphibology) you are in the position of the pot calling the porcelain vase "black" like you.
Does the existence of an amphibology (or homonym, or homograph) discredit the usage, viability or worthiness for you, really?
For the record, these are two different points in this post. First, the existence of commitment in same-sex couples who are not sexual is something you need to acknowledge as a matter of honesty. The second then is that you wish to discredit their place at the table next to you because you consider their commitment to be an entirely different meaning then what you want validated for yourself.
Feel free to hold me to my claim that there are no couples physically incapable of commitment.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, commitment is a matter of physical capacity only in regards to fulfilling a specific commitment. Otherwise it is not physical, commitment is an emotional / psychological quality.
Physically able means that if I commit to running as fast as superman, I am not physically able to commit to that.
I add that because there are many who have divorced because they felt they were physically unable to have committed in the first place. They had needs that were not met in the relationship so they wandered elsewhere to get them. But if commitment is just an emotional feeling where they can make a promise and believe they will try to do it, then that commitment is worth much less, and also a non-physical quality at all.
About this "I don't have to justify anything [other prohibitions on marriage] that you and I agree with" line:
ReplyDeleteAs I have mentioned before, even forty years ago, I supported interracial marriage, frequently getting into arguments with my dad about it. Of course it was already legal in my state, but a lot of people still didn't accept it.
Anyway, even my dad didn't argue at the time that interracial marriage would lead to same-sex marriage, as he felt, as I did, that the difference was obvious.
Still, I did occasionally encounter people---usually crude, poorly educated types---who made statements to the effect that "now that we let [blacks (note: "blacks" was not the word they used)] marry whites, next thing you know they'll be letting [homosexuals] marry each other"
Now, often this came from customers of my dad's, and at my age it was not my place to say anything and potentially cost my dad a customer, but if this came from someone I felt I could safely express my opinion to, I did, and pointed out the obvious difference.
And if someone had come to me and asked me to give an argument as to why, once we grant marriages to interracial couples, we should not now grant marriages to same-sex couples, I would have given them an answer, regardless of the fact that we both opposed same-sex marriages. I would not have felt that I did not have to; I would have regarded it as a legitimate question, even though it had a very obvious answer. Because as much as I disagreed with them about interracial marriages, I at least understood their concern that marriage had to have some limits.
And I would have given them an answer.
The debate about what is the "core" of marriage currently involves both sides weighing two functions which we all agree are important.
ReplyDelete... but cannot be served with the same program.
If you dissociate marriage from the expectation of a man and a woman, then you remove from it the fostering of marriage equality -- the quality of the representation of the man and the woman and the children they potentially have together. In other words, it is like an all-white or all-black school, they may exist with the integrated / equal schools but they undermine the social equality of the racial integration (cf: brown v board of education).
Marriage equality is something too important to drop at the insistence of a group of people who claim that their identity precludes them from meaningful and equitable integration in any meaningfully marital way.
But if marriage remains to meet that purpose, then another institution meets the purpose of committed couples (including those that are not sexual) then we can serve both.
I mean for all of your comparison of a gay couple and a disabled heterosexual couple, certainly the outcome of a non-sexual couple is as the gay couple where one is physically incapable of sexual contact. That is if you believed in your own argument at all...
Phil: Right, because I was clearly talking about couples who don't want to get married...
ReplyDeleteWho is talking about people who don't want to get married? You're working so hard not to address the arguments raised you don't even care that you're making that obvious.
Babysitters are allowed to marry their employers, and vice versa.
No, they are not. An employer that tried to represent the employment relationship as a marriage would be guilty of fraud. Is there anything true that your position rests on or just these obvious lies?
If so, then you have been arguing pretty forcefully for their right to marry.
Nonsense. I haven't argued one way or the other about couples that are "incapable of commitment," only that "incapable of commitment" meets your standards for an "orientation."
Do you believe that these couples who are incapable of commitment ought to get married, op-ed? Do you think that's a good idea?
Irrelevant. How do you propose the government determine who these couples are?
So do you have anything that "proves" responsible procreation is the core of marriage?
Already been covered, Phil, and you concocted an idiotic system for discrediting that link. You are now trying to squirm out from under that idiotic system to avoid discrediting your own "commitment" theory.
Is that the same thing as "proving something that both sides agree on?"
It happens to be in this case, which is the only relevant point.
If, in zealously defending "responsible procreation," you trash-talk "commitment," then you discredit yourself,...
It is your own argument against responsible procreation that "trash-talk[s] 'commitment'". That is nobody's fault but your own.
If you're saying that's not falsifiable, then you're agreeing that it's true.
Here you're just advertising that you have no clue. The opposite of falsifiable is not "true." In fact, most things that are not falsifiable are false.
Phil, is the statement "same-sex marriage is immoral" falsifiable?
ReplyDeleteIf it's not, are you saying that it's true?
Your assertion about physical capability is unclear. Please plainly state what physical capablity might be so that its presence or its absence might be detected.
ReplyDeletePhysical capability would mean that the structures of your body somehow prevent you from being able to make the psychological or emotional agreement to commit to a spouse.
I have no examples, because no couples are physically incapable of commitment. Do you have any examples?
On Lawn:
ReplyDeleteBut, as someone who's argument has relied on marriage as a homograph (or as I call it, an amphibology) you are in the position of the pot calling the porcelain vase "black" like you.
On Lawn,
What are you saying here? What difference does it make that I'm black?
Seriously, do you concede such couples exist or not?
ReplyDeleteI need clarification to answer that question, On Lawn.
Are you asking me if there are non-romantic, same-sex couples who feel the same sense of commitment to each other that you feel toward your wife?
Phil,
ReplyDeleteFunny, whether or not you are black means nothing to this debate, but you try to inject it anyway. I certainly don't know/care if you are.
Lets back up. Here is what Merriam Webster's provides for commitment...
Main Entry: com·mit·ment
Pronunciation: \kə-ˈmit-mənt\
Function: noun
Date: 1603
1 a : an act of committing to a charge or trust: as (1) : a consignment to a penal or mental institution (2) : an act of referring a matter to a legislative committee b : mittimus
2 a : an agreement or pledge to do something in the future; especially : an engagement to assume a financial obligation at a future date b : something pledged c : the state or an instance of being obligated or emotionally impelled {a commitment to a cause}
So which definition are you using that is different then mine?
Marriage, as I see it comprises 2a, 2b, and 2c. The commitment these same-sex couples who are not gay comprise the same definitions.
And yes, there are same-sex couples who are non-romantic but feel the same measure, the same kind, the same sense of commitment to each other that I feel towards my wife.
The only difference I can see is that as the children we have together share our identity, the nature of the commitment they expect from us is very different. In other words there may be other people who can play a role of father or mother for our children, but they only have one father and one mother. And it is most important that the father and mother fulfill those roles, and we are committed to that child-centric altruism.
no couples are physically incapable of commitment
ReplyDeleteSo no gay man is physically incapable in any degree in commitment to a woman in marriage?
because no couples are physically incapable of commitment
ReplyDeleteSo no non-sexual couple is physically incapable of commitment in the same sense that your gay couple is?
Phil Thibedeaux (asks)
ReplyDelete"The articles you linked to indicate that neither Eskridge nor Spedale believe there's a causal link between same-sex marriage and the shift in family forms that they predict. Did you read that part?
Yes: obviously I read the article I posted & linked to.
Eskridge & Spedale are a discreet camp known in marriage circles as the "conservative argument" for same -sex "marriage".
Your welcome to hang your hat with them if you like, but I brought up the article to find out what you thought about the arguments of the wider circle of gay "marriage" advocates like Ulrich Beck, Melanie Jacobs ,Elisabeth Gernsheim, Kari MoxnesK, Mae Kuykendall, Sash Roseneil, Judith Stacey, Martha Ackelsberg, Manolo Guzman, Anthony Giddens & the like.
This wider & more influential segment of proponents of same-sex marriage want to De-privilege the Privileged (traditional marriage), And privilege the de-Privileged (anything but traditional marriage)
I was wondering what you thought of their reasoning & the arguments they employed.
So no gay man is physically incapable in any degree in commitment to a woman in marriage?
ReplyDelete_Physically_ incapable? I don't think so. Do you?
And yes, there are same-sex couples who are non-romantic but feel the same measure, the same kind, the same sense of commitment to each other that I feel towards my wife.
ReplyDeleteIn that case, I'll acknowledge that such couples exist.
So, if you and your wife didn't have children, you claim your feelings toward each other would be no different than a non-sexual same-sex couple.
I don't want to get too personal, so I'll just let your words, and your concept of your relationship, speak for themselves.
Phil: > _Physically_ incapable? I don't think so.
ReplyDeleteYou seemed so much more sure before...
Is there a reason you are unsure of your assertion now?
In that case, I'll acknowledge that such couples exist.
Hmm, a second time where you seem to waffle based on what I'm saying.
I figure you would acknowledge it immediately, given your assertion of physical capability.
you claim your feelings toward each other
You were talking about commitment, right? Is there a reason to move the goal posts?
I'll just let your words, and your concept of your relationship, speak for themselves.
Well, as Lewis Caroll almost wrote ... "There goes Phil". Once a keen person asserting all sorts of things is now hoping someone comes to upstage him.
I'd like to answer, but you are so wishy washy at this point -- even in the questions you are asking -- that it seems like trying to sculpt a cloud.
But what I take away from this more then anything is that you can't define marriage on your own, you hope to just glum onto what others know marriage is.
As I said before, marriage is to us a responsibility but to you it seems to just be a usufruct.
Phil, don't forget Fitz here either. His point is valid and should be responded too.
ReplyDeleteIs there a reason you are unsure of your assertion now?
ReplyDeleteCan you link or quote to where I said gay men were physically incapable of committing to women? They may be incapable of committing to women in the same way that heterosexual men are, but that doesn't mean the difference is physical.
You were talking about commitment, right? Is there a reason to move the goal posts?
You're the one who brought the word "feel" into it; I'm just following suit.
Let me quote you, with emphasis added:
The only difference I can see is that as the children we have together share our identity, the nature of the commitment they expect from us is very different.
But you are welcome to rephrase or add to the discussion: is there something you feel toward your wife that non-romantic same-sex couples don't feel toward each other?
Phil, don't forget Fitz here either. His point is valid and should be responded too.
ReplyDeleteYou mean the part where he copied-and-pasted an article verbatim from the National Review and then asked me to give my opinion about the writings of ten different sociologists? I can't imagine why there might be a delay in responding in detail to that.
Fitz:
This wider & more influential segment of proponents of same-sex marriage want to De-privilege the Privileged (traditional marriage), And privilege the de-Privileged (anything but traditional marriage)
I don't agree that "anything but traditional marriage" should be accorded extra privilege--it's simply too broad a statement to possibly agree with, though I agree with the general sense that those who possess the majority sexual orientation often try to oppress the minority, and that those who adhere to the majority religion(s) often try to oppress the minorities.
But I doubt that major, responsible, influential sociologists would agree with your simplistic characterization of their views. Perhaps you were being hyperbolic?
I also disagree with the contention that European sociologists represent the "wider and more influential segment" of same-sex marriage proponents. It really depends on your definition of "influential," but I'm only interested in changing U.S. law. Jonathan Rauch, Andrew Sullivan, and Ellen Degeneres are more influential here.
There are bound to be lots of foreign activists who make over-the-top claims about same-sex marriage and revolutionizing society. Similarly, there are many anti-SSM advocates, here and abroad, who are stark, raving bigots: Scott Lively, Martin Ssempa, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Fred Phelps.
It's true that the extreme fringe of the pro-SSM crowd is a little loony. But the fringe of the anti-SSM crowd is downright dark, ugly, and evil to the core.
Your thoughts?
Phil: Can you link or quote to where I said gay men were physically incapable of committing to women?
ReplyDeleteIrrelevant. On Lawn's point is that Phil is less sure of his assertion now than in the past, which is absolutely true.
Phil: "no couples are physically incapable of commitment" [Absolute statement]
On Lawn: "So no gay man is physically incapable in any degree in commitment to a woman in marriage?"
Phil: "_Physically_ incapable? I don't think so." [Equivocal]
On Lawn: "You seemed so much more sure before..." [calling Phil on the equivocation]
Phil: "Can you link or quote to where I said gay men were physically incapable of committing to women?" [???]
You know someone is desperate when they feel their best option at defending their position is to look stupid.
They may be incapable of committing to women in the same way that heterosexual men are, but that doesn't mean the difference is physical.
Oh really? What is the meaningful difference between men and women.
Checkmate again, Phil.
You're the one who brought the word "feel" into it; I'm just following suit. ...Let me quote you, with emphasis added: ..."The only difference I can see is that as the children we have together share our identity,..."
More of Phil resorting to stupidity for defense. Do you think Phil really believes nobody would notice that quote he provided doesn't include the word "feel" anywhere?
Phil: I don't want to get too personal, so I'll just let your words, and your concept of your relationship, speak for themselves.
ReplyDeleteI realize Phil here is just trying to be personally insulting to On Lawn. It's all he's left with. Who is he really insulting, though?
Many non-romantic couples display amazing levels of commitment toward each other, whether it be fast friends willing to die for each other or a married couple where one has become incapacitated, disfigured, or critically or mentally ill. On Lawn believes his commitment to his wife would survive such a tragedy. Phil's incredulity shows he expects his own commitment would disappear with his attraction. I wonder if that's how Phil would like to be treated should something befall him in a relationship.
How's that petard working out for you, Phil?
Phil: You mean the part where he copied-and-pasted an article verbatim from the National Review...
ReplyDeleteWhere did he do that, Phil? Lie much?
"It's true that the extreme fringe of the pro-SSM crowd is a little loony. But the fringe of the anti-SSM crowd is downright dark, ugly, and evil to the core."
ReplyDeleteThe crowd is not a "little loony" at all. we are not talking about fred Phelps, but about mainstream and very influential acadmics and authors and activists.
The left has a pedigree when it comes to marriage. They think its archaic and patriarchal. Perhaps you have heard of such sentiments...there called feminist. They want to radically change the social structure when it comes to gender. They think marriage is oppresive by its very nature.
My law school family law department was made up of three lesbian polyamorists.They dont simply self identify as polyamorists but publish extensivley on polyamory as sicaily exceptable lifestyle deserving of recognition.
You might have half a point if we could get a serious discussion going on family breakdown.But its clear from any intellectually serious person who's being honest with themselves and others that the bulk of the left in this counry and the democratic party they are a part of simply are unwilling to seriously confront issue's like...
70% illigetamcy rates amoung African Americans, 50% divorce rates, increasing rates of un-chosen childlessness and increasing rates of non-marriage.50% illigetamacy amoung hispanics & 40 illigetamacy rates over-all
Any of the surounding issue's including sexual permisivness amoung the young, marriage mindedness, the hook-up culture...
This extends all the way into gender roles & women carrers paths...
All topics forbidden serious discussion in our universities and elite journals & media.
When I bring up those many many scholars that you are trying to avoid talking about - I bring them up for a serious reason.
They represent the mainstream middle of serious, credentialed, university centered discussion on these issue's.
These people are the cream of the crop at our nations most prestigious and influential law schools.
So dismissing them as a fringe element is not going to fly..
Either your lying to me and the group here at Opine or (perhaps) your lying to yourself..
If you want I can refrence you a much larger group of work or talk about groups like the ALI and the Principles of Family Dissolution, or give you names of Law Reviews and so fourth.
Need we go through that kind of run around...
Certainly you are educated enough to know were the accepted stance is on issue's of human sexuality, marriage and the like?
You have heard of the autonomy principle?
That all family forms are inherintly equel?
That there are no gender diffrneces that matter?
That all dybamics are power dynamics..
Thats what they taught me in college and in law school... thats what they still write about when they publish..
How is it that you are not aware of any of this?
op-ed:
ReplyDeleteWhere did he do that, Phil? Lie much?
No, op-ed, I don't lie. Look for three consecutive posts from Fitz on 3/16/2010, earlier on this page.
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=MTU4NDEzNTY5ODNmOWU4M2Y1MGIwMTcyODdjZGQxOTk=
You know someone is desperate when they feel their best option at defending their position is to look stupid.
ReplyDeleteOp-ed, you are misrepresenting the comment thread. Chairm called me out when I omitted the "physically" incapable from the statement, so I told him was right and that I'd stick with "physically incapable."
Did you miss that part?
Furthermore, the response you quoted was to a question On Lawn asked which specified "physically incapable."
Op-ed, you might want to re-think the name calling. Even if it's justified, it's often the resort of a debater who doesn't have substance. And in this case, when it's unjustified, it makes you look hypocritical and unethical.
But its clear from any intellectually serious person who's being honest with themselves and others that the bulk of the left in this counry and the democratic party they are a part of simply are unwilling to seriously confront issue's like...
ReplyDeleteFitz, the impression I get is that you keep bringing up fringe extremists so that you can paint all SSM advocates as people who want to dismantle the traditional family, force everyone to have kinky public sex, and generally bring about the return of the dark god Gozer.
But postings on this very blog contradict that--for example, the article/commentary about same-sex couples who don't want to get married because they feel that it buys into patriarchal/materialist/conventional society.
So what's your claim? Do you contend that the "bulk of the left" in this country are basically lesbian polyamorists? Because I don't think that's true.
It's true that my side, the pro-SSM side, has some people who are a little loony: their claims and beliefs are a little out-there, strange, and probably not a good idea.
And the extreme on your side, the anti-SSM side, has some of the most disgusting, horrific people who currently live on planet Earth. They have millions of followers. So if we're talking about the global discussion of SSM, you are welcome to bring in the fringes, but it reflects far more poorly on you than it does on the pro-SSM side. Do you see that?
Not remotley Phil - As I have said now twice...these are the people running the show. These are law proffesors, and the ACLU..This is the American Law Instiutue and some of Eurpoes most influential sociologists.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Presidential apointees???
Chai Feldblum & Kevin Jennings?
Is this really what you consider frindge. Are Maggie Gallagher & Robert George fringe? Is the Catholic Church Frindge? Is NOM frindge?
These are not fringe people or Fringe organizations?
Now do you have an answer to how prominent influential mainstream sociologists in Europe view what is happening/will happen under a culture of same-sex "marriage"?
Dismissing them; much less dismissing them as something they are clearly not (fringe) does not help you make your case.
Clearly you are either fooled into thinking your leadership is making the conservative case (unlikley)
Or you are trying (poorly) to cover for them?
So do explain, why are these "fringe" (if you must) elements wrong about what same-sex "marriage" does to the marriage culture?
We have had a lot of pro same-sex "marriage" supporters here at Opine, they usually stand up for what they believe in & are honest about the nature of their world view.
In what particular way are heterosexual men capable of committing to women, in your view, Phil?
ReplyDeleteThe question is asked in the present context of this discussion -- the husband-wife relationship.
Phil: "They [gay men] may be incapable of committing to women in the same way that heterosexual men are, but that doesn't mean the difference is physical."
Did you intend to say that gay men 'may be' capable in the same way that heterosexual men 'are' capable of committing to women?
I don't want to make more of this than you intended (and to which you'd willingly hold constant) but on one hand you said gay men "may be" incapable (meaning may not be capable) and on the other hand you said heterosexual men "are" capable.
Would you rather say gay men are not capable of committing to women in the same way that heterosexual men are capable?
Please elaborate.
We have not argued that the physical capability to procreate is the core meaning of marriage.
ReplyDeleteSo when SSMers, such as yourself Phil, misrepresent the core meaning, your various counter statements and attempted analogies are bound to miss the mark.
Since, by your own admission, Phil, you cannot think of bodily structure that prevents agreement to commit, you cannot reasonably point to that as the core of the type of relationship you have in mind.
ReplyDeleteOr did you mean somethng else?
If, as you say, the core is commitment, it surely is not any and all commitment but a particular type of commitment.
Commitment counts for nought unless you can state that to which commitment is given. State the essentials of this type of arrangement such that it would not exist if not for those features.
* * *
You have continued to impose the limit of two (i.e. "couples") without justification.
Based on the one-sex scenario, alone, what is the justification for your reliance on such a limit? It surely is not commitment. It surely is not physical capability to commit.
We would not be having this discussion if the commitment was not societal as well as between the applicants. So it does not suffice to say commitment is given to each other.
Obviously, "to each other" does not self-limit to two.
Phil: No, op-ed, I don't lie. Look for three consecutive posts from Fitz on 3/16/2010, earlier on this page.
ReplyDeleteOh, what a tangled web Phil weaves!
The only "three consecutive posts from Fitz on 3/16/2010" are the ones starting here. Phil claimed Fitz "copied-and-pasted an article verbatim from the National Review." By comparing those three comments from Fitz to the article for which Fitz himself provides the URL and Phil copies, it is clear Phil knows his claim is false but repeats it here anyway. Knowingly making a false statement is a lie. Phil lies.
Fitz's comments came in response to another lie of Phil's where Phil claims "Social conservatives draw a blank when they try to demonstrate how legal, optional same-sex marriage would weaken the traditional family,..." Fitz provides an example of a "social conservative" having no trouble not "draw[ing] a blank" by pointing out how major advocates of neutering marriage themselves explain how it will result in weakening marriage. Phil tries to ignore the evidence Fitz provided, but Fitz clearly disproved Phil's claim.
Phil can try to distance himself from these scholars on his side of the debate by claiming they don't have the scholarly stature of an Ellen Degeneres, an ex-comedienne turned daytime talkshow host, but he cannot refute what they actually say.
Phil: Op-ed, you are misrepresenting the comment thread.
ReplyDeleteAnother Phil-lie.
Chairm called me out when I omitted the "physically" incapable from the statement, so I told him was right and that I'd stick with "physically incapable."
Here's the comment I was responding to. Notice it is addressed to On Lawn, not Chairm. Also note that his ultimate, nonsensical response, "Can you link or quote to where I said gay men were physically incapable of committing to women?" is in fact distancing himself from "physically incapable," the opposite of "I told him [he] was right and that I'd stick with 'physically incapable.'" It's clear Phil is the one trying desperately to mischaracterize the comment trail.
Op-ed, you might want to re-think the name calling.
Phil, the only name I have called you is "Phil." If you find that insulting, and I'm not saying it isn't, then you need to take it up with whomever concocted such an insulting moniker for you to begin with, or at least provide a less insulting moniker by which you prefer to be known.
Fitz,
ReplyDeleteIt's clear Phil has nothing of value to add in response to your comments. Please consider promoting them to the front page to see if anyone else has a meaningful response.
Phil, you seem to have missed this question in response to your claim that "They ['gay men'] may be incapable of committing to women in the same way that heterosexual men are...":
ReplyDelete"Oh really? What is the meaningful difference between men and women?"
Not remotley Phil - As I have said now twice...these are the people running the show. These are law proffesors, and the ACLU..This is the American Law Instiutue and some of Eurpoes most influential sociologists.
ReplyDeleteIs it your contention that European sociologists are "running the show" when it comes to marriage law in the United States?
Phil,
ReplyDeleteSo Fitz says that Europe's most influencial sociologists are among those running the show, and your come-back is to reduce that to just "European sociologists".
Your fallacies discredit only yourself, Phil.
"Oh really? What is the meaningful difference between men and women?"
ReplyDeleteMen are the persons that heterosexual females and homosexual males are oriented to be attracted to.
As I said, sex and gender have meaning to individuals.
You have the standing to make the claim that gay men can commit to women in the same way that heterosexual men can if you're also willing to make the claim that you could commit to a man in the same way you commit to your wife.
On Lawn agreed with such a claim, which I think is admirably consistent of him.
op-ed:
ReplyDeleteHere's the comment I was responding to. Notice it is addressed to On Lawn, not Chairm.
On Lawn was responding to my comment thread with Chairm, Op.
Further op-ed drivel:
Phil claimed Fitz "copied-and-pasted an article verbatim from the National Review."
So, your big "gotcha" here is that Fitz cut out some paragraphs and words from the article? You call me a liar multiple times because of that?
You're taking nit-picking to an extreme.
Here's a passage from Fitz's post:
Same-sex marriage doesn’t reinforce marriage; instead, it upends marriage, and helps build acceptance for a host of other mutually reinforcing changes (like single parenting, parental cohabitation, and multi-partner unions) that only serve to weaken marriage. In short, “the queering of the social” (meaning a broad spectrum of family change, including, but not limited to, same-sex partnerships) calls into question the normativity and naturalness of “heterorelationality” (i.e., traditional marriage).
Anthony Giddens, the most influential sociologist in Britain, and arguably all of Europe. Giddens’s 1992 book, The Transformation of Intimacy, with its famous notion of “the pure relationship,” is the text most frequently invoked by European demographers to explain trends like parental cohabitation and same-sex unions.
And here's a passage from the National Review:
Same-sex marriage doesn’t reinforce marriage; instead, it upends marriage, and helps build acceptance for a host of other mutually reinforcing changes (like single parenting, parental cohabitation, and multi-partner unions) that only serve to weaken marriage. In short, “the queering of the social” (meaning a broad spectrum of family change, including, but not limited to, same-sex partnerships) calls into question the normativity and naturalness of “heterorelationality” (i.e., traditional marriage).
The Pure Relationship
Consider Anthony Giddens, the most influential sociologist in Britain, and arguably all of Europe. Giddens’s 1992 book, The Transformation of Intimacy, with its famous notion of “the pure relationship,” is the text most frequently invoked by European demographers to explain trends like parental cohabitation and same-sex unions.
My point wasn't that Fitz was being unethical; it was that he dumped a lot of text he didn't write into the message board and asked for my opinion about ten (literally: ten) different sociologists.
You misuse moral language, op-ed, and it looks frantic and desperate. Was I being hyperbolic? Sure; my sarcastic post included hyperbole--but don't pretend it's some big lie.
Your point is that a side-by-side comparison of the posts to the article reveals that some paragraphs and words have been omitted. Duly noted.
More misuse of moral language from op-ed:
Fitz's comments came in response to another lie of Phil's where Phil claims "Social conservatives draw a blank when they try to demonstrate how legal, optional same-sex marriage would weaken the traditional family,..."
That's not a lie, op-ed. Just because you disagree with a claim doesn't make it a lie.
On Lawn:
ReplyDeleteSo Fitz says that Europe's most influencial sociologists are among those running the show
Actually, I asked him if that was what he was claiming, but I'm glad that you interpreted his odd statement in the same way I did.
But what's the point of your criticism, On Lawn? Are you saying that "influential European sociologists" are not European?
Or are you mistakenly assuming that I was insinuating that Fitz meant that all European sociologists were running the show with regard to U.S. marriage law?
Either way, my statement was not a fallacy. Now it's only a matter of time before op-ed calls you a liar. :/
Dismissing them; much less dismissing them as something they are clearly not (fringe) does not help you make your case.
ReplyDeleteFitz,
If I'm not mistaken, your posting was in response to my claim that "Social conservatives draw a blank when they try to demonstrate how legal, optional same-sex marriage would weaken the traditional family"--
So, rather than asking me to opine about the life's work of a dozen or more influential people, can you select just one piece of evidence for us to discuss? Choose the best evidence that, in your opinion, establishes a causal relationship between optional, same-sex marriage, and the weakening of the traditional family.
I'd rather not play a game where I patiently point out how one sociologist's work really doesn't establish a link, only to have you reply, "Here are twenty more!"
So let's start from the top down. What's the best demonstration of how legal, optional same-sex marriage actually causes observable negative impacts on the traditional family. If you aren't comfortable with the way I've phrased that, let me know, and perhaps we can hash out something more reasonable.
Men are the persons that heterosexual females and homosexual males are oriented to be attracted to.
ReplyDeleteWell, as I noted before, it sure sounds like you are the one who is judging by appearance, or perhaps even more shallowly, by attraction.
By the way, does "orientation" also mark the difference between the commitment shared between two people? I've been wondering why you claimed the kind of commitment is different, except when I said they are the same, only to say it is a difference again.
On Lawn was responding to my comment thread with Chairm, Op.
Actually, I was just responding to your comment, which was inconsistent on its own accord.
Op-Ed: > "Phil claimed Fitz 'copied-and-pasted an article verbatim from the National Review.'"
Phil: > So, your big "gotcha" here is that Fitz cut out some paragraphs and words from the article? You call me a liar multiple times because of that?
Hey, Phil. We've noticed you weasel things quite a bit. It is no small thing that you said he copied and pasted an article, when he cut and pasted relevant subject matter and was open about it.
And trying to say that cutting and pasting an article and summarizing relevant points from a social conservative to answer to a claim about "social conservatives" are the same thing, is just another lie for what I can see.
You were caught, plain and simple.
Just because you disagree with a claim doesn't make it a lie.
That is a true statement, however that is not an accurate representation of what had happened. You said something about social conservatives which was obviously not true. You likely know it isn't true, making it a lie.
That some disagree with what you said is natural to a lie, but your actions took far more steps then that.
I'll also add that it isn't hyperbole when it is dead on accurate. Your misuse of division (taking part of something as the whole thing) is just bubbling to the surface over and over again as a habit. And oddly enough, even after its been pointed out. It makes that a stubborn habit, I suppose.
I'm glad that you interpreted his odd statement in the same way I did.
Funny, then you need to reconcile that with the person who said, "European sociologists are 'running the show' when it comes to marriage law in the United States?" They both have posted here by the same name.
Because that isn't the same as how I took it at all.
But what's the point of your criticism, On Lawn?
That when "Fitz says that Europe's most influential sociologists are among those running the show", you "reduce[d] that to just "European sociologists".
Its a different meaning if they are running the show, or just a part of a number of groups running the show.
Either way, my statement was not a fallacy
Fallacy of division, technically as you took a part of something as if it was the whole of it.
You have had many of your lies pointed out, and some of your errors are probably not intentional and just a matter of poor reading comprehension or poor logic on your part. Op-Ed has noted all three.
I'd rather not play a game where I patiently point out how one sociologist's work really doesn't establish a link, only to have you reply, "Here are twenty more!"
ReplyDeleteNo, likely we'd show how you are playing a game of denial rather then meeting the actual merits of what is going on.
So lets play it this way. You tell us just what Fitz asked, you tell us why we should believe you and not them.
I'm all ears on that one. Go ahead, argue with the fine intellectuals who are hoping that neutering marriage will help undermine it. Which ever one wins in that war, thats the one we'll take on. Rather than this hydra head of people who think their voice is the one-true voice of what neutering marriage will do, you all select one and we'll discuss it.
Sorry, I cut that last sentence short. Select one and tell us why that is the right one. Tell us why you are right, if you are the one true one.
ReplyDeleteBut honestly, neither you nor Miles can even agree on whether or not marriage's purpose is to promote responsible procreation or not. So I don't have too much expectation there.
I'll also note, Phil, where we've already caught you in trying to be your own hydra head. We've caught you contradicting yourself over a number of topics, and also waffling depending on other's answers. So if you say you are the one, you'll have to be even more specific then that...
And trying to say that cutting and pasting an article and summarizing relevant points from a social conservative to answer to a claim about "social conservatives" are the same thing
ReplyDeleteUh... On Lawn? Did you see the two passages I quoted, back to back? Are you calling that "summarizing relevant points?"
As I said, my point wasn't that Fitz was being unethical; it was that he dumped a lot of text from another source into the comment section of a blog and asked for a response.
You said something about social conservatives which was obviously not true. You likely know it isn't true, making it a lie.
ReplyDeleteIt's "obviously not true" that social conservatives draw a blank when they try to demonstrate how legal, optional same-sex marriage would weaken the traditional family? And to say otherwise is a "lie?"
You're guilty of placing too much faith in the weak rhetoric of social conservatives, and also misusing the word "lie."
I invited Fitz to respond, but you're welcome to provide an example if you can: what's your best example of someone demonstrating how (not asserting) that legal, optional same-sex marriage will weaken the traditional family?
Phil, on 3/19:
ReplyDeleteFurther, while some married couples are physically incapable of procreating, no married couples are physically incapable of committing to each other.
Phil, on 3/20:
The difference is that some couples cannot have children, while all couples are capable of commitment.
Chairm, on 3/20:
Please note the switch from physically capable of commiment to "capable of commitment". The physicality has been dropped.
Phil, on 3/21:
And that matters...why? "Physically capable of commitment" is only a lower bar if you maintain that there are couples out there who are physically incapable of commitment. Do you?
Chairm, on 3/21:
Physicality mattered when you introduced it as a meaningful qualifier of commitment. Don't ask me why it matters, at all, but please explain why it mattered to you then but not now.
Phil, on 3/22:
Chairm, you are right. I shouldn't have shifted the ground like that. Feel free to hold me to my claim that there are no couples physically incapable of commitment.
On Lawn, on 3/22:
So no gay man is physically incapable in any degree in commitment to a woman in marriage?
Phil, on 3/22:
_Physically_ incapable? I don't think so. Do you?
op-ed. on 3/23:
You know someone is desperate when they feel their best option at defending their position is to look stupid.
Phil, on 3/23:
Op-ed, you might want to re-think the name calling.
op-ed, on 3/24:
Phil, the only name I have called you is "Phil." If you find that insulting, and I'm not saying it isn't[...]
I see where this thread got derailed; when I told On Lawn "I don't think so," he interpreted that as uncertainty. But that wasn't intended. Perhaps this is a regional difference in phrasing, but my "I don't think so" means "I don't think they are physically incapable of committing to women." It doesn't mean, "I'm not sure" or "I guess not."
It's like saying "I think not." A different turn of phrase, but not an equivocation. (Everything a person says is what they think.)
On Lawn,
ReplyDeleteYou're acting as if you had keyed in on the phrase "among those," but here's what you wrote:
So Fitz says that Europe's most influencial sociologists are among those running the show, and your come-back is to reduce that to just "European sociologists".
I think it was reasonable of me to ask for clarification there.
So, Fitz: is it your claim that European sociologists, of any stripe, have a hand in any fashion in show-running when it comes to marriage law in the United States?
Uh... On Lawn?
ReplyDeleteSorry Phil, I've seen better attempts at revising the comment history.
Denied.
[...] it was that he dumped a lot of text from another source into the comment section of a blog and asked for a response.
And yes, I know you are complaining about having to give a response to the words of a social conservative about the degradation of marriage, because you'd rather not acknowledge that they, and we, have no problem showing the mechanisms of how neutering marriage harms it.
Whats more biting, is that the social conservative "dumped(?!?!?)" a bunch of quotes in from marriage neuterists who are cheering for degrading marriage by neutering it.
It's "obviously not true" that social conservatives draw a blank when they try to demonstrate how legal, optional same-sex marriage would weaken the traditional family?
I've actually never see it happen. What I have seen happen is people like you do some pretty shady tricks of denial that draw complete bemusement from people anticipating a good-faith and intellectually honest discussion :)
So yes, its a lie to say they do. I know it, having seen this act play out time and time again.
I doubt you can point to a time that it did :)
I invited Fitz to respond, but you're welcome to provide an example
Have, many times, but here in the comment thread I'm going to have to treat you as a hostile and dishonest commenter. You've been shown to try to twist reality beyond recognition, and sometimes outright lying.
So rather then let you set the hoops, its a trade off. First you need to answer Fitz.
In fact, every response you give which isn't an answer to Fitz will be deleted.
Why should we believe you and not the people Fitz quoted?
I mean its silly for you to ask for an example, when one is clearly in front of you. You are dismissing it over the most inane means at your disposal. What will more examples do for you if you can't even answer the ones already provided?
So who is it, them or you (who's already been self-contradicting, waffling, and outright lying)? And if you still want us to believe in you then why, tell us exactly why, shouldn't we believe them?
Phil: _Physically_ incapable? I don't think so. Do you?
ReplyDeleteMore deliberate Phil-lies. Phil tries to make it look like I was responding to the above statement. Here are the comments Phil tries to pretend didn't happen. They are exactly the comments that I quoted in my response. There is no doubt that Phil knows he is misrepresenting the comment trail.
Phil: "_Physically_ incapable? I don't think so." [Equivocal]
On Lawn: "You seemed so much more sure before..." [calling Phil on the equivocation]
Phil: "Can you link or quote to where I said gay men were physically incapable of committing to women?" [???]
Me: "You know someone is desperate when they feel their best option at defending their position is to look stupid."
It is clear that once Phil's appeal to stupidity failed he switched to blatant dishonesty.
It's like saying "I think not."
ReplyDeleteWhich still sounds like an equivocation.
And not only that, but your equivocation came at a time when you waited for my answer to a related question in that very same time you said, "In that case, I'll acknowledge [...]". On what case did your answer rest, well that my response was affirmative? You were simply waffling and unsure.
You're acting as if you had keyed in on the phrase "among those," but here's what you wrote:
So Fitz says that Europe's most influencial sociologists are among those running the show, and your come-back is to reduce that to just "European sociologists".
So, I'm only acting as if I keyed on the phrase "among those". I must be rewriting the comment thread then, I appologize. I mean it would be a different thing if that phrase was right there in the quote, but since it is not then you have me. I was only acting as if I was keying in on that phrase.
Oh wait, it is there :) Nice try Phil.
So, Fitz: is it your claim that European sociologists, of any stripe, have a hand in any fashion in show-running when it comes to marriage law in the United States?
See, you are trying to create hoops rather then answer Fitz's point. You know the answer to this, he called them "influential" (the other word you were keying on earlier but elided this time.)
From Merriam Webster's dictionary we have the following list of synonyms and meaning...
- synonyms influence, authority, prestige, weight, credit mean power exerted over the minds or behavior of others.
But to be honest, the quotes are pretty lock-step in agreement between many different sources. The way I see this debate there are those that are honest on the other side and see the impending damage to the marriage institution and are cheering it on, and then people like you who are simply apologists hoping that when your usufruct is set up and it does do damage that you'll be able to claim some sort of plausible denial.
Its the same sort of thing I've seen people do in the legalizing drugs debate which I participated in for a decade before the marriage debate.
Phil,
ReplyDeleteIf you've made any legitimate points in the last several days, please point them out. Your constant attempts to revise and respin the plain comment trail are wastes of everybody's time. You have proven you will hold to your position no matter what it takes but not that your position is in any way reasonable.
Heck, if you have any legitimate points you wish you had made over the last several days, go ahead and make those. But don't just keep coming back here to discredit yourself.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletePhil,
ReplyDeleteI don't like doing this, but I did warn you. Sometimes due dillegence is needed to tease out if there is merit to your points. Sometimes the fact that there is an accusation means that a response is warranted. But it is also boring, and a way to filibuster a comment thread, avoiding answering very basic questions.
I think we've done that enough here. The contest of wills where Miles lost (not only the contest of wills, but when he finally coughed up real answers it was plain why he was trying so hard not to answer).
Every once in a while we do have special rules for a hostile commenter. Right here, right now, until you answer the question about who we are supposed to believe and why, your comments will be deleted.
Don't worry, when you answer Fitz's point (which can reasonably be traced back almost two weeks without any response from you) then you can continue to accuse and stir up controversies with your revisions of the comment threads and play reductionist fallacies for all they are worth.
But here and now, I'll bring it back to the point...
_____
I mean its silly for you to ask for an example, when one is clearly in front of you. You are dismissing it over the most inane means at your disposal. What will more examples do for you if you can't even answer the ones already provided?
So who is it, them or you (who's already been self-contradicting, waffling, and outright lying)? And if you still want us to believe in you then why, tell us exactly why, shouldn't we believe them?
[...]
But to be honest, the quotes are pretty lock-step in agreement between many different sources. The way I see this debate there are those that are honest on the other side and see the impending damage to the marriage institution and are cheering it on, and then people like you who are simply apologists hoping that when your usufruct is set up and it does do damage that you'll be able to claim some sort of plausible denial.
Its the same sort of thing I've seen people do in the legalizing drugs debate which I participated in for a decade before the marriage debate.
"The way I see this debate there are those that are honest on the other side and see the impending damage to the marriage institution and are cheering it on, and then people like you who are simply apologists hoping that when your usufruct is set up and it does do damage that you'll be able to claim some sort of plausible denial."
ReplyDeleteMarried life is great, I thoroughly and unreservedly recommend it, bring on the "marriage neutering" I say, cant happen fast enough for me.
I agree to the first part, Caleb. In fact I have often said that if one understood what marriage really was they'd crawl on their hands and knees across the Mojave desert to find someone (if they thought it would help) of the other gender who understood the same value.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, you've stopped in the desert and started drinking the sand. Sorry, however laudable your lifelong commitment is (and I'm not saying it isn't) you're just fooling yourself to think it is marriage. And that is the worry, that others will follow suit in drinking sand rather then finding the measure and value of marriage simply because they mistake your celebration for the real thing.
Awwww. How cute! Caleb is trying to save Phil by trolling.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteYou've brought up some good conversation points. I hope we can get to them soon.
ReplyDeleteSo what is your answer so that we can?
On Lawn:
ReplyDeleteDon't worry, when you answer Fitz's point (which can reasonably be traced back almost two weeks without any response from you) then you can continue to accuse and stir up controversies with your revisions of the comment threads and play reductionist fallacies for all they are worth.
Fitz (previously):
Your welcome to hang your hat with them if you like, but I brought up the article to find out what you thought about the arguments of the wider circle of gay "marriage" advocates like Ulrich Beck, Melanie Jacobs ,Elisabeth Gernsheim, Kari MoxnesK, Mae Kuykendall, Sash Roseneil, Judith Stacey, Martha Ackelsberg, Manolo Guzman, Anthony Giddens & the like.
How about I start with one from your list? I asked a question for clarification, and an editor deleted it. It'd be a waste to go into detail about all ten of these individuals only to see a post deleted capriciously.
Melanie Jacobs is not a sociologist, but a law professor in Michigan. Presumably, Jacobs is on this list because of writings like her paper "Why Just Two? Disaggregating Traditional Parental Rights and Responsibilities to Recognize Multiple Parents."
In this paper, she discusses children who are being raised by adults who have a "significant presence" in their life but are not legally recognized as parents. In essence, she argues that the rights and responsibilities of parenthood should be split apart, so that more than two people can take responsibility for children they are raising.
Her focus is not limited to same-sex parents; she also discusses blended families and other family forms where a child is being raised by non-biological parents. Her thesis is not predictive; that is, she does not illustrate a causal link between same-sex marriage and an increase in multiple-parent scenarios. Instead, her paper is descriptive with regard to such scenarios: she writes that these family forms "are emerging in increasing numbers," and that, as such, the law needs the tools to deal with them.
In short, Jacobs' most influential writings do not provide a description of the mechanism by which SSM will result in familial breakdown. She also does not advocate familial breakdown, per se. She advocates a disaggregation--splitting up--of parental rights to reflect a given child's actual parentage situation.
And that is the worry, that others will follow suit in drinking sand rather then finding the measure and value of marriage simply because they mistake your celebration for the real thing.
ReplyDeleteIs your claim here that if same-sex marriage is legal, heterosexual men will choose to form lifelong commitments to other men instead of women, (hence "drinking sand" like Caleb?)
Phil,
ReplyDeleteI'll keep those as attempts to answer. You can say they haven't made a causal link, and that is uninteresting to me. Your inability to see what is plainly before you is not my concern.
The question is, why should we believe you instead of them? Or in this particular case, why should your values be the standard and not theirs?
And no, clarification is not needed. The question is simple. Who should we believe, you ore them, and why? You haven't offered enough evidence to rule out a causal link, which is just as valuable as you claiming that one isn't proven. Without that determination possible, what are you going to reach for that will assure us that your values are the winning ones and not the many who Fitz relayed?
I'm waiting.
Phil, here's a freebie, but only because you at least tried to answer. Don't let it distract you from answering though because I'm still of the mind to keep you focused here.
ReplyDeleteIs your claim here that if same-sex marriage is legal, heterosexual men will choose to form lifelong commitments to other men instead of women, (hence "drinking sand" like Caleb?)
No, that is not my claim and that is obvious since I stated in that same comment that I have no problem with any same-sex lifelong commitment. But calling it marriage means people will mistake that sand for the water. Now, I'm sure that has piqued your interest to know more. But not until you answer...
Phil Thibedeaux (asks)
ReplyDelete"So, Fitz: is it your claim that European sociologists, of any stripe, have a hand in any fashion in show-running when it comes to marriage law in the United States?"
That point was made obviously to dispute your contention (or perhaps attitudanal stance) that these were fringe elements.
Thats why (and again obviosly) why I listed Proffesor Jacobs, to show the mainstream and even mundane nature of this worldveiw amoung leaders in the same-sex "marriage" movement.
I still dont know what you feel about their arguments concerning the effects of same-sex "marriage" on traditional marriage culture.
On Lawn:
ReplyDeleteThe question is, why should we believe you instead of them?
Why should you believe me instead of "them"--like, Melanie Jacobs? Why should you believe me about what? The lack of a causal link?
I'm not refuting Melanie Jacobs; I'm refuting Fitz. She's not a "social conservative" who is trying to show the mechanism by which same-sex marriage causes families to degrade. She presents no such causal link, and neither do I.
So, the answer to your question is: there is no reason for you to believe one of us instead of the other; you can believe both of us. Jacobs' writings about family structures describe the world as it is. Her persuasive appeals involve proposed legal remedies to existing situations. Our claims don't conflict, so it's not a question of whether to believe me instead of her.
I still dont know what you feel about their arguments concerning the effects of same-sex "marriage" on traditional marriage culture.
I have seen no evidence of where Melanie Jacobs writes about, or in some way deals with, the effects of same-sex marriage on traditional marriage culture. If her writings about family structures are predictive, please point me toward some. I have no way to respond to an "argument" that hasn't been presented.
Giving me a list of names isn't as helpful as choosing one good example, and perhaps quoting them or linking to an article they've written.
Now, I'm sure that has piqued your interest to know more. But not until you answer...
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, On Lawn, but no.
I've no interest in posting to blogs that censor political comments. It's not worth the effort.
It's your blog, and you may do whatever you want. But if that includes limiting debate by saying, "Before you can discuss X, you must answer this question--without seeking clarification," and deleting posts with which you disagree, then I'm afraid you'll want to find another liberal.
I appreciate your time and efforts.
Phil: Why should you believe me about what? The lack of a causal link?
ReplyDeleteAnother Phil-lie. Phil never claims there is a "lack of a causal link," only that he does not see one. That is a significant difference. Outside of Phil-logic, willful blindness is not proof of anything except a closed-minded arguer.
She's not a "social conservative" who is trying to show the mechanism by which same-sex marriage causes families to degrade.
More distraction rather than answer. Phil here argues that if the link is not drawn by a "social conservative" directly, he does not need to accept it. This is pure ad hominem fallacy, a bulwark of Phil-logic.
I have seen no evidence of where Melanie Jacobs writes about, or in some way deals with, the effects of same-sex marriage on traditional marriage culture.
More Phil-lies and willful blindness. Melanie Jacobs argues that various trends, same-sex marriage included, decouple biological parentage from actual parentage. That is a direct assault on the purpose of marriage, which is to have the couple that produced a child bear primary responsibility to it. Further, Miss Jacobs claims this will lead to groups of more than two taking responsibility for a child, which Jonathon Rauch argues will result in poorer outcomes for children as more diffuse responsibility results in less responsibility overall.
Giving me a list of names isn't as helpful...
Another Phil-lie. Phil tries to characterize Fitz's input as only providing a list of names. This contradicts Phil's earlier complaint that Fitz had copied arguments ("verbatim!") by "European sociologists" directly into the comment stream. He later complained that such copying could hardly be deemed relevant.
Fitz did provide a list of names, including Melanie Jacobs, in response to Phil's again ad hominem response that the original list of arguments was made by Europeans and so not persuasive. Fitz indulged Phil's ad hominem streak by providing a list of Americans who took their cues from said Europeans. Phil's focus on the list to hide the earlier quoted arguments is mere Phil-ibuster, an attempt to evade rather than refute evidence contrary to his willfully blind position.
...perhaps quoting them or linking to an article they've written.
Ha! Phil even copied the URL Fitz provided and here he claims no link was given. (Ironically, Phil copied the URL to cover up another Phil-lie.) No clearer proof is needed that Phil's blindness is purely willful.
Phil: I've no interest in posting to blogs that censor political comments.
ReplyDeleteAnother Phil-lie and an obvious one. Look at any comment thread, including this one, to see we clearly don't "censor political comments." Lying in the face of such overwhelming evidence simply proves how desperate Phil has become that he sees that as his best option.
It's not worth the effort.
I pointed out more than a week ago that you were wasting everyone's time here. Your participation has been no better since. If you raised legitimate points or even just responded to points raised rather than attempting to dance around and obfuscate them you could have been productive, but you chose to do otherwise. Whether you are incapable of legitimate debate or are simply evading it on this topic the result is the same, a waste of time.
I invited you (or anyone for that matter) to identify any legitimate points you may have raised over the last several days. The only response was an attempted troll by caleb. Even your supporters feel the only way to defend your participation is with more diversion.
But if that includes limiting debate...
Limiting Phil-ibustering, actually. Which is regrettable, since were it not for bad-faith arguers, such limits would never kick in.
...deleting posts with which you disagree,...
Flagrant Phil-lie, as I have already shown. Further, On Lawn explained why Phil's diversionary comments were deleted:
"I don't like doing this, but I did warn you. Sometimes due dillegence is needed to tease out if there is merit to your points. Sometimes the fact that there is an accusation means that a response is warranted. But it is also boring, and a way to filibuster a comment thread, avoiding answering very basic questions."
...then I'm afraid you'll want to find another liberal.
I do. One that participates in the discussion rather than attempting to derail it. One that argues consistently rather than incessantly. One that is not, in your own words, "a partisan hack."
Good day, sir.
Phil Thibedeaux
ReplyDeletePhil tries to characterize Fitz's input as only providing a list of names. This contradicts Phil's earlier complaint that Fitz had copied arguments ("verbatim!") by "European sociologists" directly into the comment stream. He later complained that such copying could hardly be deemed relevant.
Op-ed certainly has a point. You really do seem to be chasing your tail at this point.
Go back to the original post and answer the obvious question. I still dont know what you feel about their arguments concerning the effects of same-sex "marriage" on traditional marriage culture.
Maybe Phil was right earlier, there is no need to argue details when two sides agree? Well, again that is Phil-logic, so I have no reason to believe it is entirely accurate. But still, it works wonders in this case where the lack of his acceptance of a causal link is meaningless since he doesn't disagree with Jacobs anyway. There is no contention between them at all.
ReplyDeleteBut Fitz is right, we still don't know his feelings at all on the subject. Even if he agrees.
and deleting posts with which you disagree
ReplyDeleteActually I did agree with them. They raised many good points of conversation. I believe I said that already :)
without seeking clarification
When you got down to answering it, you seemed to understand it pretty well. It seems from your answer that you didn't need clarification after all. So why did it take you nearly two weeks to finally answer? And even then, as Fitz pointed out, you've still not fully answered how you feel about the directions those quotes take marriage.