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Thursday, January 21, 2010

Gays Worse Off Now Than African Americans Were?

Maura Dolan reports on the LATimes.com blog on the Proposition 8 trial.
Gary M. Segura, a Stanford professor of American political science, has testified that voters have supported 70% of ballot measures to strip gays of rights in elections across the U.S. during the last 15 years.
What does he mean by "rights" – entitlements? The voters restricted everyone with Prop 8.
He said there was no other group that has been so targeted by voters.
Hmmmm, I wonder what other behavioral minorities would say about that claim – minorities such as people with seven-figure incomes, smokers, drunk drivers, felons in general, and sex offenders? Usually, the voters are reacting to activism. In other words, we didn't pick this fight. Prop 8 wouldn't have been needed if we could have been confident that Prop 22 would be honored. Prop 22 wouldn't have been needed if we could have been confident that our representatives would maintain marriage, unless we asked for them to change the law.

Here comes what could be the most infuriating statement of the trial:

He further suggested that African Americans may have been less disadvantaged before civil rights laws than gays are today.
Are you kidding me? Hello... slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, lynchings with jury nullification? Attacks on homosexual people are justly prosecuted. Homosexual people, as a group, were not taken from their homes and shipped across the ocean, enslaved, and treated like animals. They have not been denied voting rights - though certain marriage neutering advocates are trying to deny voting rights now.
Constitutional protections existed back then to protect people from racial discrimination, even though laws weren't enforced, Segura said.
Homosexual people have the same Constitutional protections as everyone else – as they should.
Thompson also observed that 48% of people who never attend church supported Proposition 8, and that opponents of Proposition 8 raised more money than supporters.
Oh well – it is convenient to blame the Roman Catholic and LDS churches anyway.

From Lisa Leff's Associated Press coverage:

Segura replied that membership in pro-Proposition 8 churches accounts for 34 percent of the U.S. population, while churches that opposed the measure represent less than 2 percent.
So because the kind of churches that abandon Biblical teachings to promote the neutering of marriage are also the kind to be dying off... thriving churches aren't allowed to participate in society? Huh? This is getting more and more convoluted. We have the right to worship as we please, as do you. We have the right to vote as we please, as do you. We have freedom of association, as do you. We all have the same access to state marriage licensing, whether or not we want to exercise that access.

7 comments,:

  1. Could you define "behavioral minority"?

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  2. If 42% of people voted in favor of Proposition 8, and 48% of non-church-goers voted in favor of Proposition 8, then Thompson can be interpreted as saying that non-church-goers were significantly more in favor of prop 8 than the church-goers.

    This is patently false, as is most of the blather I'm hearing from your side of the debate.

    I'm sorry to hear that you're angry. But you're either gonna have to change or attitude or get used to it. As more and more gay people come out of the closet, people like you are gonna be forced into it. Glad I'm not you, dude.

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  3. lizzzie, a "behavioral minority" is a group of people who do something that most people in the population don't do. Laws regulate behaviors all of the time, encouraging some behaviors and discouraging others.

    jtroy, if almost half of non-churchgoers voted for Prop 8, that is saying that there was a significant portion of the unchurched population that agreed with Prop - even though they could hardly be under the sway of the Catholic, Mormon, or Evangelical churches. There are nonreligious reasons to support Prop 8.

    I have absolutely no problem with people who have a homosexual orientation. As I have stated, one need not even disapprove of homosexual behavor to support the existing constitutional amendment. What I DO have a problem with is certain activists trying to manipulate the system and setting bad precedents to try to impose THEIR tiny minority will on everybody else. You may like that when it comes to this topic, but you won't like it if that tactic is ever used against you. We are a nation of laws - if we lose that, and base everything on feelings, then you'll lose. Check history on that one. Whenever the government becomes oppressive, homosexual people suffer.

    You are welcome to show where we have been false. I welcome your analysis of our writings here. "I don't like it" doesn't count as an argument, so don't waste you time with variations of that one.

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  4. If 42% of people voted in favor of Proposition 8....

    It was 52%, jtroy. Please get your basic facts straight first.

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  5. Walrus, you in one breath compare gay men and lesbians to felons, drunk drivers, the filthy rich, smokers, and sex offenders, and then you say you have no problem with gay men and lesbians. I would say that you do, and its dishonest to not even own up to the fact that you do.

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  6. Em: Walrus, you in one breath compare gay men and lesbians to felons, drunk drivers, the filthy rich, smokers, and sex offenders...

    No, he doesn't. He contrasts the treatment of "gays" to "people with seven-figure incomes, smokers, ...[etc.]," and that was in response to Segura's hyperbolic "no other group" oh-woe-is-me nonsense.

    I really wish these identity politics drones wouldn't try to convert every rational discussion into some kind of contest to use the worst reading comprehension skills to prove they have the thinnest skin on the planet. As if feigned offense is some kind of substitute for reasoned thought.

    Neutering marriage, incidentally, is not a proxy for all treatment of gays by voters. Voters tend to be very accommodating of actual "gay rights" issues around the country. Neutering marriage is clearly distinct.

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  7. Perhaps to drive home the analogy a little better, I'd define a behavioral minority as any group of people who do something that most people in the population don't do, and who contend that they can't help doing it, or can't stop doing it.

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