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Tuesday, December 22, 2009

Down Mexico Way

As long-established newsrooms continue to shrink and thus are able to cover fewer stories, one things that is always covered these days is when even the government of a city – it doesn't have to be a state or country – makes a move in favor of marriage neutering. Mexico City made the latest headlines. The mayor still has to sign the legislation for it to be officially adopted. Tracy Wilkinson covers the story for the Los Angeles Times.
Mexico City's initiative goes further than any other in Latin America by rewriting the law to redefine marriage as a "free union between two people," not only between a man and a woman. It gives homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual pairs, including the right to adopt, inherit, obtain joint housing loans and share insurance policies.
Why just two people?
Mexico City, as a rule, is less conservative than much of the rest of the country, relatively open to sexual freedoms and expressions.
Is sexual activity outside of marriage illegal in Mexico City? If not, then these changes to the law were not necessary to protect those freedoms.
Under Ebrard and his Democratic Revolution Party, or PRD, which controls the legislature, Mexico City has been at the forefront of social policy, often taking stances a far distance from other parts of the country.
The "forefront"? Why is it the forefront, and not, say, the extreme?
Before Monday's vote, Mexico City already had on the books a law that allowed a kind of legal union between unmarried people, under which they could avail themselves of a limited number of services and benefits. Only 680 couples have done so since the law took effect in 2007.
Pry away all of the noise, and the fact remains that all of society is being told it has to reorder itself for the sake of massaging the feelings of a tiny few. It is bad public policy.

33 comments,:

  1. With almost 1/5th of the country's population, Mexico City is not just "a city" in Mexico. And Mexico is not just "a country"--it is right next to the United States. For this reason, Los Angeles, the home of the newspaper you seem to be saying should not cover this event, is home to millions of Mexicans and descendants of Mexicans. It makes perfect sense that The Los Angeles Times put this story on the front page.

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  2. Those are good points, arturo555 - but it isn't just the LAT. This sort of thing gets covered by much of the MSM, because they are trying to make it look like any place that hasn't done the same thing is "behind the times", even though most of the world and most of the U.S. affirms that marriage unites the sexes. It is agenda-driven journalism that means other stories go unreported.

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  3. You can call me arturo. You can capitalize the A if you want.

    Straight marriage unites the sexes. Gays are not so unlike the opposite sex, so their marriages need not "unite the opposite sexes".

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  4. Breaking News: the southern border states of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida continue to reaffirm the man-woman basis of marriage.

    And in other news today: while LA and Houston are not "just cities" in the USA, their populations account for the large portion of Americans of Mexican decent who have voted in favor on marriage measures.

    Our reporters watch the sky and report that it has not fallen.

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  5. Breaking News: the Sudan, Saudi Arabia, and North Korea reject same-sex marriage. Chairm, I'm not impressed.

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  6. When 39 legislators out of 64 decide to corrupt the meaning of marriage we can hardly say that they reflect the majority view of the 20 million inhabitants of Mexico City. The people have certainly not voted for this. This action does not go into effect till February. There will be challenges. The mayor of Mexico City has the power to veto it and many are calling it an unconstitutional act.

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  7. Update: SSMer confuses republican democracy with totalitarianism. Sky still hasn't fallen.

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  8. Hi José, what's the Mexican constitutional dispute about the move made in Mexico City?

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  9. Playful Walrus: "...even though most of the world affirms ... that marriage..."

    Update: Anti gay-marriage fanatics confuse democracy and totalitarianism.

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  10. Arturo: Anti gay-marriage fanatics confuse democracy and totalitarianism.

    Do you support putting the issue of SSM/neutered marriage to public referendum, Arturo, in either democratic or totalitarian countries?

    Arturo, do you still hold that heterosexuals are jealous of homosexuals' ability to get sex whenever they want to, as you have previously posted here?

    If so, is this ability to get sex any time they want to, and with someone else if partner is not willing, still going to be true even after SSM?

    If SSM becomes legal, are you going to encourage that "married" same-sex couples resist this and remain monogamous?

    Please note that you are the one who has been stereotyping gays here, so these questions are fair game.

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  11. "whenever they want to"? i just don't want to bother with a statement like that.

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  12. What I understand Chairm is that an association of Catholic lawyers will challenge the Mexico City law authorizing homosexual "marriages" as unconstitutional.

    "Mientras tanto, una asociación de abogados católicos anunció que realizará un reclamo ante las autoridades porque considera que la ley es anticonstitucional."
    http://www.emol.com/noticias/internacional/detalle/detallenoticias.asp?idnoticia=390439

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  13. Arturo:"whenever they want to"? i just don't want to bother with a statement like that.

    You may be able to evade the second, third, and fourth question with that, but not the first.

    But as for the other questions, you made the statement yourself. Check here.

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  14. Specifically, Arturo, scroll down in the thread linked to above to your statement of 7/19/2009 at 12:14.

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  15. Though I remembered perfectly what I'd said, I went to the link. That's where John correctly characterized you as "the master of the red herring", which On Lawn eventually conceded. Far from attempting to "evade" answering your "second, third, and fourth questions", I've simply decided that I will not waste time with you and on this website.

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  16. Color it any way you want, Arturo. Those were pretty easy questions to deal with. If I misunderstood you somehow (true, you did not use the term "whenever they want to", but as I read it that was the essence of what you said) you can always correct me and point out how I misunderstood your statements.

    You know, Jon Rauch and Dale Carpenter have made the argument that SSM should be legal because it would encourage monogamy among gays. Now that's the best argument for SSM, though highly depending on whether or not it's true. If true, it may not be quite enough to alleviate my concerns and convince me, but it's at least a potential positive to weigh against the potential negatives. But it doesn't help that hardly any pro-SSM people here ever use the argument, as if that is really irrelevant to them. And it helps their case even less when some of them make statements that seem to indicate that it is of no interest to them whatsoever.

    But again, if I misrepresented you, please explain what you really meant.

    That's where John correctly characterized you as "the master of the red herring", which On Lawn eventually conceded.

    I read the exchange, and what On Lawn really said. Try again, Arturo.

    But when all fails, by all means resort to the ad hominem.

    And I'm sorry to say it again, but yes, the word is "evade". But I'm used to it here.

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  17. Folks, Arturo is incorrect:

    That's where John correctly characterized you as "the master of the red herring", which On Lawn eventually conceded.

    I disagreed with John's assessment then, and I still do now.

    I said then:

    "Analogies are certainly welcome. I find it hilarious that you now balk that RK is applying your reasoning to others groups. Did you really think that equality was just something just gays would use tear down other's beliefs with?

    "How unequal of you, both in assuming gays had an exclusive right to that podium, and assuming that the podium itself produced an equal playing field.

    "RK's analogies point that out. You either missed the point or are feigning offense in hopes that others miss it. Either way his point stands."

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  18. On Lawn, I said "eventually".

    You first tried to make excuses but later, eventually, you said "Sure Mr Hosty might be right."

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  19. Arturo: > On Lawn, I said "eventually".

    You also said "conceded". The full quote...

    Arturo: >>> That's where John correctly characterized you as "the master of the red herring", which On Lawn eventually conceded

    And this is the quote you are calling a concession of the red herring quote?

    "Sure Mr Hosty might be right. Of course you seem to miss that if he's right about R.K. he's right that you are stereotyping too."

    Seems that it was a hypothetical, not a concession. And it is about "stereotyping" rather then red-herrings.

    Having set the record straight, you may proceed with answering the questions that RK asked rather then creating red-herrings of your own.

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  20. You tried to change the subject, yes, to something about "stereotyping". When you said "Sure Mr Hosty might be right" I had just "John is right you are the master of the red herring"--after I gave a very clear example of RK creating a red herring. As a master of he red herring, RK is a waste of time, so he deserves no answers. So are you, but this only took 1.5 minutes.

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  21. Arturo: ...after I gave a very clear example of RK creating a red herring.

    Let's examine this "clear example".

    On 9/12/09 at 12:34 PM I posted, in reference to John and Arturo (in the other thread):

    "If you or Arturo make highly simplistic and generalizing statements to the effect that "we're more enlightened because we've discovered equality", or "if it's in the name of equality it can't be wrong", it is not a red herring (i.e. a distraction from the point) to point out that such broad assertions simply can't stand up under scrutiny, and that neither of you believe in that statement as an absolute either." (Bold added for stress)

    Yet, either not reading or understanding this or (far more likely) pretending he did not, on 9/14 at 1:41 AM, Arturo posted:

    R.K., I have said that gay rights are a direct result of women's rights. You can disagree with that, but you cannot say I'm saying that everything and everyone should be seen as equal to everything and everyone else. John is right that you're the master of the red herring.

    Please note again: Arturo claimed that I said that he was saying that "everything and everyone should be seen as equal to everything and everyone else"

    When I specifically said that "neither of you [Arturo or John] believe in that statement as an absolute either"

    And this, of course, is his "very clear example of RK creating a red herring". A complete distortion of what I in fact said.

    Who's using "red herrings"?

    On Lawn, don't worry, I never read your post as believing that I was using "red herrings". I'm not sure whether Arturo's just not getting it or deliberately trying to cause friction between us.

    It appears that to Arturo, a "red herring" is a statement or argument or analogy that he knows full well is relevant but also knows that he can't answer.

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  22. R.K.

    Thanks!

    FWIW, from his explanation, it is clear he was simply juggling the facts. Whether out of malice or incompetence is really no matter to me.

    He seems to still miss the dual edge I put in his assertion, meaning that if he is right he's right about himself.

    And if he read the conversation he'd remember (maybe) that "stereotyping" (which he just called a red-herring) was introduced as one of Mr Hosty's typical hosty-lities.

    But that is the fun part of having Arturo around. He keeps sticking the knife in his fellows (as he did in that comment thread), over and over in attempts to hit us.

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  23. RK, you've excluded the part of our exchange that makes you a dishonest debater.

    To my statement, "I can definitely say that a society where women have the right to vote is a more enlightened one."

    You replied "Would we be even more "enlightened" if we lowered the voting age or, in fact, allowed children to vote at any age?"

    I had repeated claimed that gay rights are a result of women's rights. Nowhere had I said gays should get equal rights because equality is absolute. You kept saying that, to distract from what you do not want to comfront (that your opposition to gay marriage is ultimately anti-women).

    On Lawn saw that, agreed you're dishonest, and wanted to debate what I was actually saying.

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  24. On Lawn, what makes YOU a waste of time is

    1. that you are now wasting time trying to defend RK, and

    2. I have over and over explained the difference between us, and I did so again on this thread above. And that is, that "gays are not unlike the opposite sex, so their marriages need not 'unite the sexes'". You either see reality that way or you don't. I do. You don't.

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  25. ...i should add the word "as": "gays are not as unlike" (as straights). it makes a difference.

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  26. Arturo: To my statement, "I can definitely say that a society where women have the right to vote is a more enlightened one."

    You replied "Would we be even more "enlightened" if we lowered the voting age or, in fact, allowed children to vote at any age?"



    I also posted this, in a thread in which you participated:

    http://opine-editorials.blogspot.com/2009/09/its-not-quite-chynnatown.html#comments

    Check 9/25/09 at 11:55 PM

    I'll repost it below.

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  27. Arturo, what really has triggered the idea of neutered marriage in recent Western society has not been giving women the right to vote, or even more broadly women's equality.

    Yes, cultural effects can take generations. Cultural corollary ideas probably are seen more quickly. Your argument is that same-sex marriage is a cultural corollary idea to giving women the right to vote.

    It would be no less logical to argue that women in combat (or the draft) is a corollary to giving women the right to vote. Or that mandating the end of separate restrooms is a corollary to giving women the right to vote. Or that ordering the end of separate sections for men and women's fashions in clothing stores is a corollary to giving women the right to vote.

    And even if these could be seen as corollaries to giving women the right to vote, that would not prove that they were good ideas. Corollary ideas to good changes in a culture, life women's suffrage, are not necessarily good in themselves. Culture is not like mathematics or abstract logic. One could argue that Communism was a corollary to the idea of equality, in the cultural sense. But it was not a good one. (And I am not accusing anyone here on either side of the neutered marriage question of being a Communist; there is no reason for me to believe that any of you are). Cultural corollary ideas can be severely flawed.

    The more direct trigger of the idea of neutered marriage in recent Western society is the idea, not that the genders are equal, but that all sexual acts are qualitatively equal.

    And the trigger of this idea is the idea that sex is first and foremost for pleasure and not for procreation.

    And what gave this idea a huge shot in the arm was the "liberation" of sex from procreation provided by the Pill. You can credit Gregory Pincus.

    And the effects of this have not all been good.

    www.firstthings.com/article/2008/07/002-the-vindication-of-ihumanae-vitaei-28

    The "Sexual Revolution", not women's suffrage, was the trigger of the idea of neutered marriage in recent Western society. But this does not mean it is the only route by which the idea could have developed, as you imply.

    One thing I've learned from both biological and cultural studies is that different steps can lead to similar ends. You can't assume that there is only one possible route which may have led to the idea of neutered marriage in the past.

    Let's for argument's sake, assume that the following contentions of progressivist utopians and SSM advocates were true: 1) that marriage's main purpose through history was as an "anti-cuckoldry" device; 2) that marriages between homosexuals and heterosexuals are "living a lie", and 3) that men and women in such relationships can not be "sexually satisfied" and thus will seek outlets for satisfaction elsewhere.

    If this is all true, would not it have been observed in at least some cultures, that women married to homosexual men were more likely to make cuckolds out of their husbands? And that this in turn may have made women married to heterosexual men more likely to cheat on their husbands also?

    And, thus, would not at least some cultures, to prevent the encouragement of cuckoldry, have decided that it was better thus for homosexual men to be married instead to other men, so that they would not be cheated on by unsatisfied wives who thus encouraged such behavior onto the broader culture?

    It's a wonder why not....unless there turned out to be something else very wrong with the idea.

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  28. I also posted this in an earlier thread, Arturo.

    Here is the chronological order in which states granted women the right to vote

    1. Wyoming (1869)
    2. Utah (1870)
    3. Colorado (1893)
    4. Idaho (1896)
    5. Washington (1910)
    6. California (1911)
    7. Arizona (1912)
    Kansas (1912)
    Oregon (1912)
    10. Alaska (1913)
    Illinois (1913)(Presidential only)
    12. Montana (1914)
    Nevada (1914)
    14. New York (1917)
    Nebraska (1917)(Presidential only)
    North Dakota (1917)(Presidential only)
    Rhode Island (1917)(Presidential only)
    Arkansas (1917)(Primaries only)
    19. Michigan (1918)
    Oklahoma (1918)
    South Dakota (1918)
    Texas (1918)(Primaries only)
    23. Indiana (1919)(Presidential only)
    Iowa (1919)(Presidential only)
    Maine (1919)(Presidential only)
    Minnesota (1919)(Presidential only)
    Missouri (1919)(Presidential only)
    Ohio (1919)(Presidential only)
    Tennessee (1919)(Presidential only)
    Wisconsin (1919)(Presidential only)

    19 states then in the union had not given women the right to vote at all yet by the time the 19th Amendment was passed. They were:

    Alabama
    Connecticut
    Delaware
    Florida
    Georgia
    Kentucky
    Louisiana
    Maryland
    Massachusetts
    Mississippi
    New Hampshire
    New Jersey
    New Mexico
    North Carolina
    Pennsylvania
    South Carolina
    Vermont
    Virginia
    West Virginia


    Note: only one of the states (Iowa) in which SSM is presently legal, as well as Maine, had given women the right to vote before 1920, and both of them did so only in 1919 and with Presidential voting only. (Though California was one of the early ones, if you want it to count).

    Note that of the states in which SSM is either presently legal or set to become legal, four (Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont) had not given women the right to vote at all by 1920.

    And note the four states which had granted women full suffrage before 1900. Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, and Idaho. Yes, Utah, with those nasty Mormons who still so believe that gender is so important in marriage, was the second state to give women the right to vote.

    Boy, we can all see real correlation between the time states grant women the right to vote and the time they neuter marriage, can't we?

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  29. RK, you've excluded the part of our exchange that makes you a dishonest debater.

    Please explain how you arrive at that conclusion.

    To my statement, "I can definitely say that a society where women have the right to vote is a more enlightened one."

    First of all, yes, we are more enlightened by granting the vote to women...but only on that particular issue. That's a different thing than saying that "a society where women have the right to vote is definitely a more enlightened one overall". A society can be enlightened in some ways and very unenlightened in others.

    It is also a different thing than saying, in effect, that "we are more enlightened because women vote, therefore we will be even more enlightened if we take the next step...."

    You are implying this, are you not, Arturo?

    Now, what is the next step? Or how do we determine just what the next step is?

    There, Arturo, the big problem with your statement. Who decides? Whose "enlightenment"? Anybody's?

    Is it granting the right to vote to some, or any, other class of people? Which classes count and which don't?

    Is it extending further rights to women? Probably, but who decides what this means? Does it mean drafting women, or putting them in combat? Does it mean eliminating separate rest rooms? Does it mean abolishing separate clothing sections? Some say yes, some say no. Who's "enlightened" on this and who isn't?

    I had repeated claimed that gay rights are a result of women's rights.

    You believe that gay rights is a corollary to women's rights. Others disagree. (Including, for a long time, Betty Friedan, who resisted this conclusion until the pressure from other feminists was too strong). But again, who decides? Whoever is "more enlightened"? How do we measure this?

    Nowhere had I said gays should get equal rights because equality is absolute.

    But then just how do you determine just where equality should and should not be applied? Whatever line you draw, not all will agree. What makes your line better than theirs? Your greater "enlightenment"?

    See, when you imply that it's all "simply about equality", but don't say that equality is absolute, you're left essentially saying nothing better than "It's simply about equality except when I say that it isn't". That is the big problem with the line of arguments made by yourself, John Hosty-G, Marian, and many others. Though there are some pro-SSM people who make their arguments in a better fashion. I won't name them because I don't wish to create friction between you and them.

    Equality is one question among many. It has to be weighed out among other factors. Questions related to this cannot be resolved by platitude.

    You kept saying that, to distract from what you do not want to comfront (that your opposition to gay marriage is ultimately anti-women).

    Pure ad hominem, though consistent with your repeated attempts at armchair psychology.

    On Lawn saw that, agreed you're dishonest, and wanted to debate what I was actually saying.

    Your attempts to create friction between myself and On Lawn are getting nowhere, Arturo.

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  30. Arturo:> On Lawn, what makes YOU a waste of time is

    Wow, talk about the attempt to degrade a person.

    We are all people of worth

    Being a man is worth something, so is being a woman, and especially what they physically do aside from any emotional drama which directly impacts another human being (namely the one they create together).

    Arturo: > On Lawn saw that, agreed you're dishonest, and wanted to debate what I was actually saying.

    [...]

    you are now wasting time trying to defend RK


    I haven't seen RK as dishonest. I've just shown you to be dishonest though. My previous comment stands to point that out.

    That is a big difference.

    Its not a matter of defending RK (though I'm happy to since I've found great value in his insight and commentary), but pointing out that you are lying about what I said.

    That you have to lie about it underlies a larger point which I'm allowing you to continue to make.

    Now feel free to answer RK's questions, they are something I think we are all wondering.

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  31. Thanks José, we'll have to keep an eye on the arguments they put forth that the law in Mexico City DF is unconstitutional.

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  32. Poor On Lawn, he feels degraded because he hasn't been of use to me.

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  33. arturo: ...he feels degraded because he hasn't been of use to me.

    "Pure ad hominem, though consistent with [arturo's] repeated attempts at armchair psychology."

    OK, I'll admit I stole that response from RK's last comment to Arturo. Either Arturo missed it or he decided he'd prove RK right.

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