Comment Policy

Disputes of fact and of opinion are why we are here. We may disagree with you, just as we hope you share your disagreements with us. Being friendly will usually invite friendly replies. We can and will delete otherwise great posts for unseemly profanity.

Comments anywhere on the site -- no matter how old the post -- will show up on the front page as a recent comment and in the comment RSS feeds.

Tuesday, May 12, 2009

Universally Honoring a Behavioral Minority Poses Problems

Robin Wilson, a professor of law at Washington and Lee University School of Law, had a commentary that ran recently calling for certain protections for those who object to recognizing a brideless or groomless relationship as marriage.
It's possible to legalize gay marriage without infringing on religious liberty.
Such is the premise of the piece. The problem is, religious liberty is just one of our concerns. In almost every case, if not every case, neutering of state licensing of marriage in the United States has been done against the will of the people of that state. The problem with this is that it is the people of the state who are supposedly issuing the licenses to begin with. When a court usurps that authority from the people, then it is also a concern about representation and how government works at the most basic level.

[The rest is below the fold if you care to read it.]

The country is deeply divided on same-sex marriage. But once it is recognized legally, all kinds of people -- clerks in the local registrar's office, photographers, owners of reception halls, florists -- might not have the legal right to refuse to provide services for same-sex weddings, even if doing so would violate deeply held beliefs. Religious organizations could be affected too. For example, a Catholic university that offers married-student housing might have to rent to married same-sex couples or risk violating state law.
I see this as a larger issue of liberty for property owners, employers, and the freedom of association. In my understanding of rights, a photographer should be able to refuse to be hired for a ceremony for any or no reason. These days, a photographer runs afoul of the law if he says, "No, I will not do your wedding because you're not white," but not "No, I will not do your wedding because you're ugly." Both moves are stupid business decisions, but only one is illegal. And in more and more places, it is illegal for someone to turn down a gig because he or she does not want to participate in what he or she believes is a mockery of something sacred.
In Iowa, the state's attorney general told county recorders that they must issue licenses to same-sex couples or face criminal misdemeanor charges and even dismissal.
Public servants are supposed to do the work of the public. If the people of a state have decided to neuter their marriage licensing, then the office needs to accommodate that. However, I have no problem with an individual being able to refrain. Surely, we do not force observant Muslims to handle pork products when passing out a government-subsidized meal, do we?
Conscience protections are a thoroughly American idea. Since Colonial times, legislatures have exempted religious minorities from laws inconsistent with their faith. Such exemptions allow Americans with radically different views on moral questions to live in peace and equality in the same society.
This is a good point.

In the Los Angeles Times, there was a response by Alan Brownstein, a professor at UC Davis School of Law.

The more serious problem with Wilson's analysis is that it never considers the impact of religious exemptions on gay and lesbian couples.

In my opinion, religious institutions should be granted an exemption from having to recognize the validity of same-sex marriages most of the time. But at some point, the cost of these exemptions becomes unacceptably high. For example, should a religiously affiliated hospital have the right to deny gays or lesbians the same rights of visitation and decision-making that are provided by law to opposite-sex families?

Good question. Hospitals are a little different from other facilities because someone may be taken there in an emergency or otherwise unable to consent or object.
The basic idea here is straightforward: We can and should work hard to accommodate the rights of same-sex couples and religious individuals and institutions. Doing that right, however, requires government to take account of the actual and legitimate needs and interests of both groups.
I don't like where this is going. It smacks of way too much power and intrusion by the government, especially if it is operating counter to the consent of the governed.

There were also some letters responding to the first piece.

Kevin T. Freeman of Rancho Cucamonga wrote:

Separate cannot be, by its very nature, equal.
Sure it can. For example, we have separate restrooms for men and women. We have separate designations on birth certificates and many other forms. These things are still true, even though I know some of the more radical GLBTQQ activists are trying to change these things.

The famous court decision being paraphrased said things (note: not marriage related) were separate AND unequal, not that things couldn't possibly be separate and equal. Nonetheless, same-sex pairings, either male or female, not the same thing as a bride-groom pairing. This is demonstrated all over the world, every day, and has been through all of human history.

Are gay people citizens or aren't they?
They are citizens, of course, and have (as they should) the same rights and protections as anyone else – no more, no less. That shouldn't change even if two gay people get together.
We have the right to be religious; we do not have the right to impose our religious views on others.
And coincidently, you have freedom of association, but you don't have the right to force us to change our marriage laws to bestow a marriage license upon your different kid of voluntary association.

Why is this different than anything else? Why do some people seem to see the need for a religious exemption in this matter, but not so many others?

Perhaps it is because we're dealing with something so basic and fundamental to humanity – how we perpetuate our society by creating and raising the next generation. I wonder if even a lot of people who are pushing marriage neutering recognize that it is entirely rearranging the fabric of society, and some of them are willing to concede that forcing this into every aspect of our lives is a bit much. I suspect others are willing to provide the exceptions, cynically, because they are counting on it being easier to get their goal of neutering marriage, and then a court will subsequently remove the religious protections later. It's another Trojan horse.

Religious freedom in the United States is not absolute For example, people aren't allowed (strictly speaking as far as the law goes, anyway) to molest children or murder a 20-year-old, even if their religion calls on them to do it. There are certain rights that those who wrote the Constitution saw as basic natural rights that each of us have, regardless of who we are. While the culture was generally nominally Christian, it was inconceivable that one day we'd be having a debate about whether or not two men could be married. But now, we're in a place where we may see the rights and liberties of anyone who doesn't recognize that two men could be married may face some sort of legal sanction.

On the other hand, equal access is not guaranteed to groups, but rather indivuduals. Under bride-groom marriage licensing, access is equal.

25 comments,:

  1. A couple of notes:

    The hospital visitation "problem" is anecdotal among gay activists. Most hospitals have no such marriage requirement for visitation.

    The idea behind the question are gays citizens is to stretch the concept of equal protection of the 14th Amendment to include same sex marriage. This interpretation is ludicrous, yet is at the core of the gay activists' argument for inclusion in a "civil right."

    ReplyDelete
  2. "It's possible to legalize gay marriage without infringing on religious liberty."

    I'd question this point right here. Perhaps it's possible. But is it likely? And is it likely to be sustainable?

    Are religious liberty exemptions going to be a halfway house to something worse, like Civil Unions have been simply an intermediate step?

    If the belief that anti-pseudogamists are bigots becomes entrenched in the general or elite population, there's no guarantee conscientious exemptions will survive.

    ReplyDelete
  3. "The hospital visitation "problem" is anecdotal among gay activists. Most hospitals have no such marriage requirement for visitation."
    This is a strawman argument at it's best. The problem is not that there is a 'marriage requirement' for visitation. The problem is that if I travel to a state that does not recognize gay marriage, and my partner falls ill to the point of not being able to make her own medical decisions, I can be prevented from seeing her by her family members. Even if I have a health-care proxy, it doesn't necessarily matter. Just last year, two women took their children (all adopted by both of them, so the children were, in fact, *theirs*) on a cruise. The ship stopped in FL, and one of the women collapsed from an aneurysm. At the hospital, even with their health-care proxy in-hand, both the children and her partner were barred from seeing her as she lay dying, because the hospital in question wouldn't honor the proxy. Eight hours after they arrived, the woman died, and her wife and children were never allowed to see her.
    Is that fair?

    ReplyDelete
  4. I can answer "No, that's not fair" and still maintain that it isn't a good enough reason to neuter marriage, nor for a court to impose neutered marriage licensing against the vote of the governed.

    I get ants in my house. I may even get a murderous robber sneaking into my house. Burning down the the house would take care of both problems. But it would be excessive.

    ReplyDelete
  5. But for an opposite-sex couple, getting these rights (and others) is as easy as paying a small fee at the courthouse. Without same-sex marriage being legal, the only options for us are extensive, expensive, and sometimes prohibitively so.
    Especially for those of us raising children, how do we protect *our* families?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Wait a minute,

    I've personally been in those situations and can personally say that marriage makes no difference.

    Katie, for how sad that is, is not a problem of marriage it is one of the hospital policy which often doesn't recognize marriage either.

    ReplyDelete
  7. And it is not an isolated case, it is simply the one that was most recent and publicized.
    I've never heard of a hospital policy that does not recognize spouses as next-of-kin. Can you give an example?
    What I want, and what other committed couples want, are the protections and privileges that opposite-sex couples can obtain by going through a drive-thru wedding chapel in Vegas.
    If you can think of a way for that to happen, I would love to hear your suggestions.
    Keeping same-sex marriage illegal is not going to stop monogamous same-sex couples from settling down together and raising families. So, how do those of us who are in same-sex relationships and raising children protect our families?

    ReplyDelete
  8. What do you really mean when you use the phrase, "committed couples"? Are you implying sexual behavior, sexual attraction, or somesuch?

    I don't see how that can be a decisive factor in allowing a patient to see loved ones -- or anyone else that person chooses -- during a stay in the hospital, much less on death's bed.

    Provision for designated beneficiaries has long-existed and is well-utilized. It is available regardless of sexual orientation and is not based on a sexualized relationship anyway.

    In most places all it takes is an affidavit and a nominal fee. Now, if affordability and accessibility are actual problems, then, that could be addressed without much bother and without touching marriage, except, perhaps, to make married people ineligible or eligible with restrictions.

    "Same-sex relationships" are not illegal. Again, are you implying relationships defined by sexual behavior or somesuch, because plenty of two-sexed relationships are not eligible to marry.

    You seem to be confusing opposite-sex with heterosexual and both of those categories with the marital relationship, as a type of relationship.

    The child-parent relationship, at law, is not directly established through a one-sexed arrangement, because where children are involved there are at least two pre-requisites: 1) parental relinquishment (or loss) and 2) government intervention to assign a replacement adult as parent.

    Most children living in same-sex households, by far, got there from the previously procreative relationships of their moms and dads (usually marriages). It is just that one or the other parent is not resident.

    In such cases with even remarried parents, the nonresident parent is not rendered invisible -- see the prerequisits I mentioned earlier.

    Indeed, if the nonresident parent is gay or lesbian, and living with a same-sex partner, his or her parental status is protected by the marital presumption of paternity as applied to the previous marriage with the child's mother or father.

    One would think that given that most of those children in same-sex households come from marriages of husban dand wife, that SSMers would cherish the marital presumption of paternity and the basis for it.

    But, unfortunately, too many advocates of SSM will deny that responsible procreation and marriage are meaningfully intertwined and definitive of the core of marriage.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I know that SSM and interracial marriage are not parallels, but if you are going to stand on the principle that if the majority doesn't agree with something, it's not right for judges and legislatures to push the issue, you need to address why Loving was okay in 1967, when the vast majority of Americans disapproved of the practice.

    ReplyDelete
  10. peter, notice what the court did NOT do in the Loving case. It did NOT neuter marriage. If "any two people" getting married was a right, why didn't the court say so then?

    I would have preferred the laws against "interracial" marriage (I actually believe we are all one race, regardless of skin color) have been repealed by legslative vote.

    Still, skin color ("race") is incidental to marriage, while sex (as in gender) is inherent to marriage.

    Unlike the pairing of two men or two women, marriage between ethnicities has existed and been recognized for all of recorded human history. I don't know of a single major religious tradition or holy book that doesn't recognize such marriages or discourages such marriages. Yes, there were some churches/denomations that insisted such marriages were wrong, but even they thought they were marriages... they were just "wrong" to do. This is in contrast to recognizing a "marriage" without a bride or without a groom.

    Bascially, bans on "interracial" marriage attempted to halt an established and recognized practice, while up until a few years ago, same-sex "marriage" existed nowhere in the world.

    Plus, those bans were in some states, not everywhere, and they were actual *bans* that violated freedom of association, as there used to be laws against unmarried cohabitation. Thus, unlike Chuck and Larry today, a black and white couple back then in those places could not hold a ceremony and then live together as husband and wife. Today, even where there are marriage amendments, you won't get a Marshall or Sheriff showing up at Chuck and Larry's door taking one or both of them away (and possibly to jail) because someone complained that they are living together and calling each other "husband".

    Loving dealt with skin color - something someone is born with and is usually readily apparent to all. We don't choose our ethnicity. Behavior is not the same.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I've never heard of a hospital policy that does not recognize spouses as next-of-kin. Can you give an example?I'm sorry to tell you this, but I've been in more than one life and death situation with my wife. Next of kin, let alone marriage, meant nothing.

    Privacy laws and stances have relegated the hospitals of my patronage to care about nothing at all except the specific legal declaration -- already on file or from her own person -- that I'm someone she trusts and should be brought in.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Hoh: you need to address why Loving was okay in 1967, when the vast majority of Americans disapproved of the practice.

    Pete, you need to do your research. The question in the Gallup poll was "Do you approve or disapprove of marriages between blacks and whites?" Not, "Should marriage between blacks and whites be legal?"

    The vast majority of states did not have anti-miscegenation laws on the books at the time of Loving, a fact not allowed by your misinterpretation.

    ReplyDelete
  13. KK: I've never heard of a hospital policy that does not recognize spouses as next-of-kin.

    I've never heard of a hospital that had a policy of determining next-of-kin.

    So, how do those of us who are in same-sex relationships and raising children protect our families?

    Protect your families from what? Bureaucratic hospital policies? If you think marriage does that you are sadly mistaken.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Peter, from have you derived "the principle that if the majority doesn't agree with something, it's not right for judges and legislatures to push the issue"?

    The members of the judiciary are not supposed to push their policy preferences. The judiciary, as one coequal branch of government, is neither competent to do so nor empowered to do so nor equipped to do so.

    Now, as for Loving, what principle do you think is at stake in the court's reasoning on the issue of anti-miscegenation laws?

    In terms of the legislative branch, where a state has a process whereby the People can reject a legislative act, or amend the constitution, then, the express will of the People trumps the will of their elected representatives. It can also trump the will of the judges sitting in the court system.

    The governmental authorities are the servants of the People, not the other way around.

    Now, if the constitution is the will of the People, the courts and legislature need to adhere very closely to the text and its plain meaning. Otherwise they subsitute their own will and press their own policy preferences into the interpretation of the written law.

    ReplyDelete
  15. This line is the one that seems to be pushing the principle that the courts and legislatures need to follow the will of the majority:

    "In almost every case, if not every case, neutering of state licensing of marriage in the United States has been done against the will of the people of that state. The problem with this is that it is the people of the state who are supposedly issuing the licenses to begin with. When a court usurps that authority from the people, then it is also a concern about representation and how government works at the most basic level."

    ReplyDelete
  16. From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy...

    ___________

    John Locke (1632-1704), is among the most influential political philosophers of the modern period. In the Two Treatises of Government, he defended the claim that men are by nature free and equal against claims that God had made all people naturally subject to a monarch. He argued that people have rights, such as the right to life, liberty, and property, that have a foundation independent of the laws of any particular society. Locke used the claim that men are naturally free and equal as part of the justification for understanding legitimate political government as the result of a social contract where people in the state of nature conditionally transfer some of their rights to the government in order to better insure the stable, comfortable enjoyment of their lives, liberty, and property. Since governments exist by the consent of the people in order to protect the rights of the people and promote the public good, governments that fail to do so can be resisted and replaced with new governments. Locke is thus also important for his defense of the right of revolution. Locke also defends the principle of majority rule and the separation of legislative and executive powers. In the Letter Concerning Toleration, Locke denied that coercion should be used to bring people to (what the ruler believes is) the true religion and also denied that churches should have any coercive power over their members. Locke elaborated on these themes in his later political writings, such as the Second Letter on Toleration and Third Letter on Toleration.

    ____________

    The government rules by consent of the governed, always. Even in tyrannies.

    The question is whether that consent is gained through diplomatic discourse, or by force.

    I support the former, don't you?

    ReplyDelete
  17. Peter, do you have poll results from the Loving days which specifically asked whether or not interracial marriages should or should not be legal, as opposed to asking whether people merely "approved"?

    I don't know exactly what such results would show. But they are two different questions.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I never suggested that Gallup asked about Americans' opinion regarding the legality of interracial marriage. That semantic game has little to do with my point.

    Gallup asked, "Do you approve or disapprove of marriage between blacks and whites." Spin it any way you like, but in 1968, only 20 percent of respondents said they approved, and 73 percent said they disapproved of such marriages.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marriages.aspx

    ReplyDelete
  19. I am almost certain that if surveyed an overwhelming majority of those who support SSM would say that they'd siapprove of "mixed orientation" marriages, however, that does not mean they'd make people ineligible to marry on that basis.

    The majority would be even more prounounced among those who self-identify as gay or lesbian.

    I'm speculating based on the unerringly disappoving remarks that SSMers generally make on this topic.

    ReplyDelete
  20. By the way, Peter, I think the Loving case was a repudiation of an assertion of identity politics as the decisive factor in shaping marriage laws. So that would lean heavily against applying Loving to the assertion of gay identity politics as per SSM argumentation.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I never suggested that Gallup asked about Americans' opinion regarding the legality of interracial marriage.And I never suggested that you did.

    That semantic game has little to do with my point.Not really true. Interracial marriage was legal in most Northern states at the time of Loving, and there was no movement of any substance in those states to illegalize them.

    I remember those days, Peter, and the belief reflected in those polls was quite different from the belief of those who oppose neutered marriage now. The attitude then was not that interracial marriage was not marriage, or that it undermined marriage. Rather, the attitude was that it was "unwise" because it put the children in the middle, where they would not be accepted by either white or black society. An argument I did not agree with, but definitely not the same kind of argument as the one we make against neutered marriage. It was, in fact, much more comparable to the arguments against interfaith marriages.

    Not that there weren't some who opposed interracial marriage because they thought blacks were inferior to whites. But those who opposed it for the reason I note above added considerably to the numbers in the poll you cite.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Another thing Loving did not do was strip procreation rights form marriage. The court could have said, as Peter thinks it should say regarding same-sex couples, that they should be allowed to marry but not procreate together. But the court didn't do that, because they understood that the question of allowing marriage was the same as the question of allowing procreation. That's why they cited Skinner, which said that procreation was a "basic civil right of man", to base their argument that marriage was therefore a basic civil right of man.
    Peter, we left off our discussion with you clinging to the position that marriages do not protect procreation rights, so that we can prohibit same-sex couples from procreating even though we allow them to marry. Does Loving help you understand why that position is terrible? The Lovings were asking for the right to mix their genes together and have children, legally and legitimately, not for hospital visitation rights. It is the same thing that same-sex couples are asking for. KateyKat, for example, is asking for equal rights with a woman or a man. So the difference is, yes, we should have equal rights with someone of any race, but no, we should not have equal rights with someone of either sex. We should not negate the Lovings' right to have children together by equating their rights to a same-sex couples.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Michael Steele just came up with a new line of argument: gay marriage will cost you money.

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D987ESAG0&show_article=1

    ReplyDelete
  24. Steele's argument needs a bit of tweaking, but it is the right direction. Equal rights for same-sex couples will cost us money. Allowing people to attempt same-sex conception will cost us money. To relate the cost of same-sex conception to marriage, though, requires assuming that marriage gives the couple the right to attempt to conceive together, which so far, it always has, and probably will continue to, unless Peter has his way and we strip conception rights from marriage. Peter - did you see my point about Loving not stripping conception rights from marriage? They didn't suggest that virginia could allow them to conceive (the "basic civil right") but prohibit them from marrying, nor did they suggest that virginia could let them marry but still prohibit them from mixing their genes (miscegenating).

    ReplyDelete
  25. John, your suggestion that I want to strip conception rights from marriage is a disingenuous claim.

    ReplyDelete